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Thread: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Yes, because, clearly we have had no updates to our OSHA standards since the fifties and sixties. Plus, that's a celeb chef TV show. Hardly a commercial kitchen. And dress codes, as required by the state, is exactly the issue.
    The state has filed in this lawsuit? Please provide a link to their input.

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Omgitsme View Post
    The problem is religious in nature. Employees have the right to wear clothing that is required by their religion. Im sure she could sue because she had a verbal contract with the employer but she can also sue because they violated her rights as an employee to wear clothing required by her religion.
    There is no right to wear clothing required by her religion. However, when the manager agreed to it, she suddenly had a validated exception from the dress code which would exist even if it wasn't religious in nature.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The temporary state of the economy is immaterial to basic matters of individual liberty.

    This is not temporary, it is cyclic. It gets like this on an irregular but consistently repeating cycle. During periods of prosperity and low unemployment, it gets better for a while... but the wheel turns and employers use that time period (often fairly long) to put the squeeze on employees, hard... and it doesn't necessarily "go back to normal" when prosperity returns. A new norm is established. It is like ratcheting a pulley ever-tighter.

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    This is not temporary, it is cyclic. It gets like this on an irregular but consistently repeating cycle. During periods of prosperity and low unemployment, it gets better for a while... but the wheel turns and employers use that time period (often fairly long) to put the squeeze on employees, hard... and it doesn't necessarily "go back to normal" when prosperity returns. A new norm is established. It is like ratcheting a pulley ever-tighter.
    Employers have the upper hand in labor markets where labor is plentiful and the worth of labor is less than or equal to the current compensation offered it. Employees have the upper hand in labor markets where labor is limited and the worth of labor is greater than or equal to the current compensation offered it.

    Regardless, the job belongs to the employer, and he or she is free to offer any compensation for any task he or she wishes to hire people to do. If the compensation is too low, no one will take the job, and if the employer wishes to make "wear pants" part of the job description well - the job is owned by the employer, not the employee. Demanding that the government interfere to tilt the balance of trade in your favor is hiring a bully to help you take something that belongs to someone else.

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Employers have the upper hand in labor markets where labor is plentiful and the worth of labor is less than or equal to the current compensation offered it. Employees have the upper hand in labor markets where labor is limited and the worth of labor is greater than or equal to the current compensation offered it.

    Regardless, the job belongs to the employer, and he or she is free to offer any compensation for any task he or she wishes to hire people to do. If the compensation is too low, no one will take the job, and if the employer wishes to make "wear pants" part of the job description well - the job is owned by the employer, not the employee. Demanding that the government interfere to tilt the balance of trade in your favor is hiring a bully to help you take something that belongs to someone else.

    I don't know why I have to keep reiterating this... in the relationship Employer->Employee, the vast majority of the power is held by the Employer. The relationship is ALWAYS somewhat coercive because the employer controls your income, at least on a temporary basis. One of the purposes of a government devoted to individual rights is to keep powerful organizations from abusing the less-powerful individual.

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I don't know why I have to keep reiterating this... in the relationship Employer->Employee, the vast majority of the power is held by the Employer.
    you have to keep reiterating it because it is A) simplistic B) incorrect and C) irrelevant.

    One of the purposes of a government devoted to individual rights is to keep powerful organizations from abusing the less-powerful individual.
    that is partially correct. government exists to keep any entity from abusing individual rights. relative power is immaterial - a weak person stealing from you is just as much an abuse of your property rights as a strong person doing so. However, rights are negative, not positive things, and powerful organizations do not abuse your rights by not giving you something (like a job). If Burger King attempts to steal this womans' property, silence her right to free speech, or take away her guns, let me know.
    Last edited by cpwill; 08-26-12 at 11:29 PM.

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Okay - she's not a cashier at a restaurant or kitchen. She was (and I'm gonna say that 'lightly' considering she never even logged in a single hour of training) a BK employee. You ever seen a single BK, McDonalds, Wendy's cashier who didn't wear pants?
    Yes. McDonalds definitely. I think I remember seeing a BK employee wear a skirt but cant quite remember. And half the female employees at Chick-Fil-A wear skirts.

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There is no right to wear clothing required by her religion. However, when the manager agreed to it, she suddenly had a validated exception from the dress code which would exist even if it wasn't religious in nature.
    Religious Discrimination

    Religious Accommodation/Dress & Grooming Policies

    Unless it would be an undue hardship on the employer's operation of its business, an employer must reasonably accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices. This applies not only to schedule changes or leave for religious observances, but also to such things as dress or grooming practices that an employee has for religious reasons. These might include, for example, wearing particular head coverings or other religious dress (such as a Jewish yarmulke or a Muslim headscarf), or wearing certain hairstyles or facial hair (such as Rastafarian dreadlocks or Sikh uncut hair and beard). It also includes an employee's observance of a religious prohibition against wearing certain garments (such as pants or miniskirts).

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you have to keep reiterating it because it is A) simplistic B) incorrect and C) irrelevant.



    that is partially correct. government exists to keep any entity from abusing individual rights. relative power is immaterial - a weak person stealing from you is just as much an abuse of your property rights as a strong person doing so. However, rights are negative, not positive things, and powerful organizations do not abuse your rights by not giving you something (like a job). If Burger King attempts to steal this womans' property, silence her right to free speech, or take away her guns, let me know.
    Burger King is doing to this woman what MOST large corporate employers (much of the labor marketplace now) are doing: attempting to enforce a level of conformity without regard for individual rights like, in this case, freedom of religion. BK could accomodate this woman's deeply held beliefs with a MINOR accomodation that would not impair her ability to do her job or the site's ability to function. When enough employers do this, they're forcing people to choose between important issues of conscience and being able to work and pay their bills.

    Corporations trend together in terms of many of the requirements they lay on employees. Many of these are based on liability and insurance; others are based on generic templates for corporate structure like this ICS 9001 thing. As time goes by and more and more employers end up as part of this megacorporate conglomerate structure, more and more of them will be laying on the employee requirements that trample individuality indiscriminately. Employees will have fewer and fewer options to "just go work elsewhere", when almost everywhere else is laying the same requirements on them.

    Your ox may not be being gored today, but let this case go and others like it and one day it WILL be your ox who is getting gored by an organization too large and powerful for you to defy alone.

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Burger King is doing to this woman what MOST large corporate employers (much of the labor marketplace now) are doing: attempting to enforce a level of conformity without regard for individual rights like, in this case, freedom of religion. BK could accomodate this woman's deeply held beliefs with a MINOR accomodation that would not impair her ability to do her job or the site's ability to function. When enough employers do this, they're forcing people to choose between important issues of conscience and being able to work and pay their bills.

    Corporations trend together in terms of many of the requirements they lay on employees. Many of these are based on liability and insurance; others are based on generic templates for corporate structure like this ICS 9001 thing. As time goes by and more and more employers end up as part of this megacorporate conglomerate structure, more and more of them will be laying on the employee requirements that trample individuality indiscriminately. Employees will have fewer and fewer options to "just go work elsewhere", when almost everywhere else is laying the same requirements on them.

    Your ox may not be being gored today, but let this case go and others like it and one day it WILL be your ox who is getting gored by an organization too large and powerful for you to defy alone.
    They can work elsewhere small business is BIG business. Small business makes up most of the business in this country so she can go wherever else she like. Otherwise she can work for hereself. As far as corperations large and small, those one size fits all templates they love so much backfire alot, in BK's case a lawsuit,(plaintif as a small case with practically no damage if any. The case is that she was told it was ok for the skirt and then they reniged the offer.), and high turnover. Hense why they use small business alot.
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