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Thread: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    Its not BS. Her skirt in no way effected her performance, nor did it present any hardship for BK. They had no reason to not accommodate her.
    Just because there is no reason to not accomodate her does not mean that they should...or HAVE to accomodate her.


    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    The only BS is thinking this was anything but discrimination.
    As has been pointed out many times already the orientation manager told her to go home before he knew anything about her religion. That alone shows that it had nothing to do with discrimination. Why are people so insistant to disregard this?
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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    Because discrimination based on religious grounds, just like on racial grounds, is ugly. We have no place for such discrimination and intolerance in a civil society
    As has been pointed out many times already the orientation manager told her to go home before he knew anything about her religion. That alone shows that it had nothing to do with discrimination. Why are people so insistant to disregard this?

    But in anycase your arguement is silly and totally ignores reality. But hey, tell me...what do you discriminate against? Nothing? Are you a Saint? Are you Jesus Christ Resurrected? No...that can't be as even he would discriminate.
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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    As has been pointed out many times already the orientation manager told her to go home before he knew anything about her religion. That alone shows that it had nothing to do with discrimination. Why are people so insistant to disregard this?
    you are offering his high-handedness as a defense? that he failed to inquire whether she was wearing the dress because she had been afforded a reasonable religious accommodation by burger king is no defense

    But in anycase your arguement is silly and totally ignores reality. But hey, tell me...what do you discriminate against? Nothing? Are you a Saint? Are you Jesus Christ Resurrected? No...that can't be as even he would discriminate.
    what is silly are your weak attempts to pretend that there is no religious basis for this law suit when it is entirely driven by the faith practices of the hired burger king employee
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    What percentage of practising Christians include this piece of costume specific ritual?
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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you are offering his high-handedness as a defense? that he failed to inquire whether she was wearing the dress because she had been afforded a reasonable religious accommodation by burger king is no defense
    Why should he have inquired? What is he suppose to be physicic? Is he suppose to be a lawyer? Know all the laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    what is silly are your weak attempts to pretend that there is no religious basis for this law suit when it is entirely driven by the faith practices of the hired burger king employee
    EXACTLY! It is entirely based on this persons religious faith. It is not based on what actually happened. What would you rather have? People going by their feelings? Or on what actually happened?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    What percentage of practising Christians include this piece of costume specific ritual?
    Not sure why its relevent but...

    There are over 279 million Pentecostals worldwide, and the movement is growing in many parts of the world, especially the global South. Since the 1960s, Pentecostalism has increasingly gained acceptance from other Christian traditions, and Pentecostal beliefs concerning Spirit baptism and spiritual gifts have been embraced by non-Pentecostal Christians in Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox churches through the Charismatic Movement. Together, Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity numbers over 500 million adherents.
    Pentecostalism

    Whether they ALL follow that particular dress code? No idea.
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    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    I'm just curious, because I never heard of it before reading this thread. Is it a variation on the "cover women up to prevent mens' desires being inflamed" meme?
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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    It is probably safe to assume it was explained to the manager when he first told her the skirt was unacceptable. Had it not though, it would have been had higher management decided to answer her calls. Instead they chose to break the laws.

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    justabubba
    nothing arbitrary about her actions. she was quite deliberate and appropriate in her actions. when she became aware that she would not be able to conform to the pants requirement due to her religion, she advised the burger king representative of her religious edict which prevented her from wearing slacks

    kal'stang
    You're right, she was deliberate. Appropriate though? That is quite debateable. Would it have been appropriate for any other religion to ask for such accomodation? Inculding the ones that you think are ridiculous to bring up? IE Pastafarians? Its funny how this womans religion and what she asks for is perfectly fine because its based on a mainstream religion but if its one that isn't mainstream and generally accepted? It's "ridiculous" to bring up.
    the law provides for a reasonable accommodation based on one’s religious practices. doesn’t matter the religion. would have thought that was understood by the text of the Constitution previously posted

    justabubba
    she certainly applied for the job of her own free will. no one has asserted that she did so while under duress. so, what point are you trying to make about it?

    kal'stang
    This should be obvious. If someone willingly goes into something knowing the requirements before hand then going in and then making a big fuss about those requirements is just plain selfish and smacks of arrogance.
    asserting one’s legal rights is found by you to be selfish and arrogant. your post smells of desperation due to such comments

    justabubba
    while it is very possible that she was aware of the dress code when she applied, there is nothing i have read which establishes that to be a fact

    kal'stang
    Can we at least TRY to keep to reality here. Besides the fact that she brought it up in the interview should show you that she knew about the dress code.
    wait. how is it you know that SHE brought it up in the interview? why could the dress code requirement have not been something the burger king agent with hiring authority explained at the time of the hiring interview, which then would have caused her to explain her need for a religious accommodation. so, show us your documentation which will tell us it was the pentecost employee and not the burger king hiring agent who first raised the issue of the dress code

    justabubba
    but either way, she understood her obligation to communicate the religious beliefs that would prevent her from wearing the standard issue pants. and she so advised the hiring authority, who extended to her the appropriate religious accommodation

    kal'stang
    Bold: Which by itself shows that she knew about the dress code.
    as above, why could she not have responded to the dress code issue once it was initially raised by the burger king hiring agent? show us that it was the pentecost who first broached that topic. until then, you’ve got nothing to prove that she knew in advance (not that it makes a difference, but only to place on exhibit the weakness of your debate position)

    kal'stang
    Rest: Who doesn't have the authority to change BK policy.
    again. show us evidence that the person who has been given the authority to hire an employee is not also able to craft the terms of employment. Until you show that, you have nothing
    i am willing to bet you have no understanding of the concept of implied authority. that is my basis of rebuttal if and when you should happen to show us evidence that the burger king hiring agent was not able to define the terms of the pentecost’s employment despite that he was obviously with the authority by burger king to effect the hire


    justabubba
    under title vii that is a reasonable expectation ... for one's religious needs to be reasonably accommodated in the work place. her expectation was not unreasonable

    kal'stang
    Did you ever consider that Title VII is unreasonable?
    title vii is the law. if the law is found unreasonable then there is a process to change it. could you show us where that has been done or is being attempted. betting you can/will not be able to show that
    next, will you also want me to prove that water is wet? your debate positions are getting more desperate with each post


    justabubba
    other than the law, there is no other obligation
    but then there is the legal obligation you appear to want to discount ... probably because its requirements absolutely obliterate your debate position

    kal'stang
    Do you say the same thing when it comes to marijuana? If you just want to go by "because its the law" then that works perfectly well with your stance on the marijuana law. Funny how "its the law" works for something that you support but when it comes to something you don't support? ......
    there is no difference. the law is enforced as it stands. not as how you or I might want it to be, instead. those of us who consume an illegal drug as subject to penalties for our failure to heed the law. just as burger king will be when the court finds that it failed to abide by the anti-discrimination law known as title vii

    justabubba
    now, beyond the legal obligation, there is a sound business reason to want to accommodate an employee's religious views: it makes excellent business sense to hire and maintain employees who are not disgruntled by the employer's capricious and unreasonable work rules

    kal'stang
    And there is also sound buisness reason to want everyone to follow a dress code. Indeed by making an exception you can create disgruntled employees also. So this arguement holds no water. Especially when you consider the fact that if you didn't allow one employee to follow thier religious dress codes that would only be one disgruntled employee whereas if you let them then its possible that you would have multiple disgruntled employees.
    back when title vii was passed, there were large numbers of people who insisted they would not work beside people of color. title vii was passed – and enforced – making a lot of people disgruntled
    if forced to choose between disgruntled employees, who resent the accommodation, and the law requiring an accommodation, the law must prevail. but I was attempting to show that making an employee feel welcome and wanted would be a good thing for an employer; sorry that was lost on you


    justabubba
    what evidence do you have to prove that the same agent of burger king, who possessed the authority to hire her was also without the authority to sanction a reasonable religious accommodation. i am guessing none - but prove me wrong

    kal'stang
    The only ones that can change any companies policy are the owners. Everyone else has to follow them or ask THEM for exceptions. Duh.
    not true. it happens every day that a non-owner modifies business practices/policies
    if you want me to explain in detail why i am right on this matter and you are so wrong, create another thread and i will join you there to prove my position


    justabubba
    which would first compel a showing that what he did was inconsistent with the expectation of those higher up the organizational chart. as burger king now knows, not providing a legally required religious accommodation can cause the company to have to defend its actions in court

    kal'stang
    So are you saying that an employee shouldn't ask thier employers permission to change or make an exception to a company policy?
    i am saying an employee has an obligation to take actions in their employer’s best interests
    if given the choice between making a reasonable religious accommodation under the law as provided by title vii or not doing so and placing the employer in a lawsuit, the hiring employee got it right. especially when recognizing there may very well have been an implied authority, such as telling the new hire that she could wear a long skirt instead of the standard issue pants


    justabubba
    then you are telling us that it is burger king's policy to refuse to subscribe to the law, title vii, and offer a reasonable accommodation due to one's religious practices? again, show us the proof that causes you to believe something so ridiculous on its face. i'm willing to bet you cannot do so

    kal'stang
    Never said that did I? In fact I would imagine that if things had gone through proper channels the first time around this thread wouldn't even exist.
    then you do recognize that burger king policy would be to subscribe to the laws, including title vii, making it appropriate to take actions consistent with the provisions of title vii and offering a reasonable religious accommodation. which begs the question: why the hell are you arguing a position which is wrong under the law?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Christian Woman Fired from Burger King for Wearing Skirt Instead of Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    I'm just curious, because I never heard of it before reading this thread. Is it a variation on the "cover women up to prevent mens' desires being inflamed" meme?
    They no doubt will not portray it as such but it does derive from old world mentality so the answer would probably be yes.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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