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Thread: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

  1. #41
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Early intervention? What do you hear repeatedly in interviews following these mass shootings?:

    "Well, he'd been sick/ill/stressed/suffering from mental issues".

    And what do most of them have in common:

    Desperation, unemployment, high-stress lifestyles or failures deriving from same, etc.

    So what we have then, is a profile. And we can then take that profile and utilize it to increase our focus on preventative actions instead of honing our post-incident reactions and Monday morning quarterbacking.


    Now, if we go down another path and discuss gang-related gun violence or drug-related gun violence the answers are slightly different. Discourage gang activity by providing legitimate options for escape for young children before they ever get approached by gang leaders. Legalize possession of most drugs and create a regulated sales system a la California.

    Guns aren't the problem. Environments are the problem. Even if you destroyed every single gun in existence these people would still find a way to kill and physically assault others. Guns are just a weapon, not a cause. We have to stop approaching it that way.
    Agreed about the gang related violence part. End the war on drugs and provide a legal avenue for obtaining the drugs that people want, and most of the cause of gang violence will disappear. If the same logic of "people will get guns anyway, so there's no point in making laws to stop them" works on guns, why not use it on drugs? People want 'em, so let's stop fighting the inevitable.

    But there's a few problems with your other plan, though. First is that it wouldn't work with anyone who doesn't seek psychological help. Doctors only have an opportunity to diagnose those who go in for treatment. Unless you just want to cast a wide net. But then there's another problem. Most people who fit that profile don't go nuts and shoot anyone. Admittedly, that's the same problem with gun restrictions. Most gun owners don't go nuts and shoot anyone either, but that's why restrictions would need to be carefully tailored. But that's not the issue.

    Suppose we do examine everyone who could theoretically fit this profile. First we have to gather that info on all the ones that don't seek out treatment. How much increased surveillance will that require? Do we really want the government keeping psychological profiles on all of us? How would we obtain that information? Spying on people everywhere they go in public? Spying on people in their homes? That's an awful lot of intrusion to identify these folks. And then what? What are these preventative measures? Are we going to force people to seek out treatment? Imprison them for crimes they might commit?

    In theory, I like what you're saying. But in practice, I have no idea how it could work without massive infringements of privacy and liberty.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    What I'm saying is that pro gun people fear that gun registration and waiting periods are a slippery slope to taking away everyone's guns. Sorry if I wasn't clear there.
    Waiting periods only delay law abiding citizens, not criminals. Registrations do not stop crime nor do they help solve crime,if they did there would be plenty of stories of fire registrations stopping crime or solving crime. The only reason for firearm registrations is to facilitate confiscation.


    GunCite - Gun Control: gun registration;firearm registration
    Gun Confiscation in Democratic Societies
    New Zealand has had some form of firearms registration since 1921. In 1974, all revolvers lawfully held for personal security were confiscated. (Same source as previous paragraph)
    In May of 1995, Canada's Bill C-68 prohibited previously legal and registered small-caliber handguns. Current owners of such guns were "grandfathered," which means the guns are to be forfeited upon death of the owner. Bill C-68 also authorizes the Canadian government to enact future weapons prohibitions.
    On 10 May 1996, Australia banned most semi-automatic rifles and semi-automatic and pump shotguns. Prior to this law, many Australian states and territories had firearms registration. Owners of these newly outlawed firearms were required to surrender them (with some monetary compensation). All such firearms are to be confiscated and destroyed after a 12-month amnesty program. Roughly 600,000 of an estimated 4 million Australian guns have been surrendered to authorities and destroyed.
    "Since 1921, all lawfully-owned handguns in Great Britain are registered with the government, so handgun owners have little choice but to surrender their guns in exchange for payment according to government schedule...The handgun ban by no means has satiated the anti-gun appetite in Great Britain." (All the Way Down the Slippery Slope: Gun Prohibition in England and Some Lessons for Civil Liberties in America", Hamline Law Review, 1999)
    Even in the United States, registration has been used to outlaw and confiscate firearms. In New York City, a registration system enacted in 1967 for long guns, was used in the early 1990s to confiscate lawfully owned semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. (Same source as previous paragraph) The New York City Council banned firearms that had been classified by the city as "assault weapons." This was done despite the testimony of Police Commissioner Lee Brown that no registered "assault weapon" had been used in a violent crime in the city. The 2,340 New Yorkers who had registered their firearms were notified that these firearms had to be surrendered, rendered inoperable, or taken out of the city. (NRA/ILA Fact Sheet: Firearms Registration: New York City's Lesson)
    More recently, California revoked a grace period for the registration of certain rifles (SKS Sporters) and declared that any such weapons registered during that period were illegal. (California Penal Code, Chapter 2.3, Roberti-Ross Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989 section 12281(f) ) In addition, California has prohibited certain semi-automatic long-rifles and pistols. Those guns currently owned, must be registered, and upon the death of the owner, either surrendered or moved out of state. (FAQ #13 from the California DOJ Firearms Division Page)
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  3. #43
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Well, the thread's been open an hour, and no anti-2nd amendment loon has done so. Didn't take long for conservatives to politicize the thread though, that was taken care of in the OP. So in the battle of hypocrisy, you guys appear to have won this time.
    Perhaps its due to the fact its nearly impossible for a law abiding citizen to legally obtain a firearm in NYC, so their weez needz to stricter gun control argument doesn't hold water.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #44
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Perhaps its due to the fact its nearly impossible for a law abiding citizen to legally obtain a firearm in NYC, so their weez needz to stricter gun control argument doesn't hold water.
    Same thing as when people bashed those who brought up the need for gun control after the Colorado shooting.

  5. #45
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    Same thing as when people bashed those who brought up the need for gun control after the Colorado shooting.
    Anyone with at least an ounce of common sense knows that criminals do not obey laws,so the idea we should restrict the law abiding is idiotic.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  6. #46
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Another act of social terrorism and people still think guns, laws, or denial is the solution.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Perhaps its due to the fact its nearly impossible for a law abiding citizen to legally obtain a firearm in NYC, so their weez needz to stricter gun control argument doesn't hold water.
    Come on now, I know you are more intelligent than that. It may be difficult to obtain a gun in NYC, but it is easy to drive into the city after having obtained one elsewhere. And in any event, nobody ever claimed gun control would be fool-proof, only that it would decrease gun violence. NYC does have relatively low gun-crime per capita. You may disagree with the argument, but it is certainly a rational one that has not been disproven yet.
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Chicago is another place where it is difficult to get guns. Yet the night before the shooting in NYC there were 15 murders in Chicago. There might be less gun violence, but there is certainly plenty of other violence. I always like to point out Kennesaw Georgia. Take a look at gun laws there along with crime rates. Interesting stuff. They have a nearly manditory gun ownership law (with exceptions for the mentally ill or people who just don' t want them) their law went in to effect in the 80s IIRC and over the next couple of years all kinds of crime was significantly reduced.

  9. #49
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    its difficult to get guns in NYC and a shooting happens. It easy to get a gun in Colorado and a shooting happens.

    sorry whats the point trying to be made here?
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  10. #50
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Anyone with at least an ounce of common sense knows that criminals do not obey laws,so the idea we should restrict the law abiding is idiotic.
    I think it's better to err on the side of safety. Obviously, criminals in general aren't going to abide by gun control laws. However, if there is a fairly thorough screening process, it may prevent even a few unstable people from getting them and doing potentially bad things with them. I think that alone is worth it.

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