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Thread: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

  1. #101
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    But is it really any kind of test?

    Cops qualify but only hit what theyre aiming at like what, 17 percent of the time?

    Depends. Cops from some dept's score 91% hits (on the PERP) in actual shootings... in other places (oddly enough, often those where citizens are mostly disarmed) some departments score as low as 17% in actual shootings.

    For SC CWP, at the time I did it, you had to put over half your rounds into the K-zone of a silouette at up to 15 or 20 yards (I forget which). There were six other people taking the course that day when I did it, the only one that had any problem doing this was an older lady who had never shot much. The instructor went over some things with her (grip, trigger squeeze, sight picture, etc) and she qual'd on her second try.

    I put every round through the K-zone, and so did the guy next to me. Of course, I'd been shooting since I was knee-high, and when I was a cop I routinely out-shot the Department instructor at the range. Not bragging, just fact. In my estimation the shooters on the line in my CCW class were mostly on-par with the cops I shot with when I was doing the LE thing.

    Around here, it is just kind of expected that you know how to shoot already if you show up and apply for an LE job. If you don't already shoot fairly well, you get some funny and/or exasperated looks.

    I've never lived in NYC but I have friends who have, some of whom were involved in LE or Military activities in or around the city. They've told me that it is astonishing how very very few NY'ers know how to DO anything.... swim, drive, operate "heavy" machinery like a backhoe, fix anything mechanical... or shoot any kind of firearm. According to some of my sources most NYPD recruits have never fired a handgun before joining and many have never fired ANY actual firearm. This kinda explains a lot, in terms of NYC's poor record on cop shoots.

    Last I heard, they were also using those damn 9-pound "NY triggers" on their 9mm Glocks, which is a good way to ruin even a good shooter's aim. They did this in response to an excessive number of negligent discharges resulting in injury... but the solution to that is good training not heavy-ass triggers.

    Studies have been done about what sort of person does well in a shootout, hitting their man and putting him down without hitting bystanders. The conclusion was that the best shooters in real shootouts have some or most of the following traits:

    1. Was a shooter before joining LE.
    2. Experienced Hunter.
    3. Engaged in competitive target shooting.
    4. Engaged in precision shooting competition.
    5. Handloader/Reloader (shows a depth of involvement in shooting activities)
    6. Exhibits skill-acquisition behavior in other areas (ie possesses other skills like driving, swimming, martial arts/boxing/wrestling, biking, etc)
    7. Exhibits ability to think on his feet and/or function under stress.
    8. Military background, especially combat arms.

    These were some of the characteristics some departments looked for in special-operation units that were likely to engage in shoot outs with violent perps... someone with 3 or 4 or more of the above traits typically did well in such engagements.

    It's hard to be sure who will keep their stuff wired tight in a fight until it actually happens... but statistically CCW'ers shoot far fewer bystanders than cops per-capita so it isn't the CCW'ers we need to worry about....

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  2. #102
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    But is it really any kind of test?

    Cops qualify but only hit what theyre aiming at like what, 17 percent of the time?
    Yeah, and the time you find out your cops are in that 17% it's a little bit too late. What do cop supervisors get paid to do? I guess it's to test the quality of donuts and not test the quality of their "marksmen".

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  3. #103
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Depends. Cops from some dept's score 91% hits (on the PERP) in actual shootings... in other places (oddly enough, often those where citizens are mostly disarmed) some departments score as low as 17% in actual shootings.

    For SC CWP, at the time I did it, you had to put over half your rounds into the K-zone of a silouette at up to 15 or 20 yards (I forget which). There were six other people taking the course that day when I did it, the only one that had any problem doing this was an older lady who had never shot much. The instructor went over some things with her (grip, trigger squeeze, sight picture, etc) and she qual'd on her second try.

    I put every round through the K-zone, and so did the guy next to me. Of course, I'd been shooting since I was knee-high, and when I was a cop I routinely out-shot the Department instructor at the range. Not bragging, just fact. In my estimation the shooters on the line in my CCW class were mostly on-par with the cops I shot with when I was doing the LE thing.

    Around here, it is just kind of expected that you know how to shoot already if you show up and apply for an LE job. If you don't already shoot fairly well, you get some funny and/or exasperated looks.

    I've never lived in NYC but I have friends who have, some of whom were involved in LE or Military activities in or around the city. They've told me that it is astonishing how very very few NY'ers know how to DO anything.... swim, drive, operate "heavy" machinery like a backhoe, fix anything mechanical... or shoot any kind of firearm. According to some of my sources most NYPD recruits have never fired a handgun before joining and many have never fired ANY actual firearm. This kinda explains a lot, in terms of NYC's poor record on cop shoots.

    Last I heard, they were also using those damn 9-pound "NY triggers" on their 9mm Glocks, which is a good way to ruin even a good shooter's aim. They did this in response to an excessive number of negligent discharges resulting in injury... but the solution to that is good training not heavy-ass triggers.

    Studies have been done about what sort of person does well in a shootout, hitting their man and putting him down without hitting bystanders. The conclusion was that the best shooters in real shootouts have some or most of the following traits:

    1. Was a shooter before joining LE.
    2. Experienced Hunter.
    3. Engaged in competitive target shooting.
    4. Engaged in precision shooting competition.
    5. Handloader/Reloader (shows a depth of involvement in shooting activities)
    6. Exhibits skill-acquisition behavior in other areas (ie possesses other skills like driving, swimming, martial arts/boxing/wrestling, biking, etc)
    7. Exhibits ability to think on his feet and/or function under stress.
    8. Military background, especially combat arms.

    These were some of the characteristics some departments looked for in special-operation units that were likely to engage in shoot outs with violent perps... someone with 3 or 4 or more of the above traits typically did well in such engagements.

    It's hard to be sure who will keep their stuff wired tight in a fight until it actually happens... but statistically CCW'ers shoot far fewer bystanders than cops per-capita so it isn't the CCW'ers we need to worry about....
    I've always been able to shoot. Got that natural "talent". I can shoot pistols ambidextrous (oddly a little better with my "weak" hand usually. No real experience with long rifle work where windage and elevation are involved, but probably could learn.

    So it always freaks me out to see cops opening fire at close range and not hitting the perp. That and several cops emptying their weapons into the homeless guy with a "switch" for raising it at a police dog (which they also shot).

    I know WHY cops don't shoot to wound, but i certainly could at the ranges these ahootings usually take place at.

    I'm a city kid with country parents, and my dad wasnt a gun nut or avid hunter, but i was exposed early and got my dads first gun handed down to me at twelve. So maybe that is a bigger factor than one would think.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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  4. #104
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    well having shot someone in a street mugging I think I understand stress. It wasn't any more than the stress of having been in the lead of the olympic trials until a piece of target came through the side of my glasses and messed up my eye. or shooting for 10K in prizes at the USPSA open nationals.
    Were there 9 innocents around you? Self-defense with a handgun in a mugging situation is easy because the only people around you obviously are going to be the bad guys (unless a citizen is coming to your aid). If you only have one target and he is surrounded by innocents it makes it a little harder.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  5. #105
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    People don't seem to care enough that cops HIT more innocents than the KILLER did. When the cops are a bigger threat than the criminal you know something is wrong.

    As for gun laws, I'm pretty much center. The pro-gun argument goes guns don't kill people, people kill people. I follow that logic, I believe that a psych exam has to be given at gun registrations. Autos and semiautos would have stricter psych requirements than nonautos. I don't mind a registration period because it is highly improbable that a murder would occur within 5 short days (except in a death-threat situation, in which the citizen should get his/her weapon immediately), but a time that long can help eliminate the probability of a crime of passion. It is hard to say how much gun laws prevent crime, which makes things difficult for legislation purposes.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  6. #106
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    Re: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    They were I hope aiming for the target, but missed with a large number of shots and hit 9 people. Any of those 9 could have been killed had the bullet hit them in a different spot.
    I think the problem is people are assuming nine bullets from cops directly hit 9 bystanders. From what I have read so far, I've not seen that is the case. The articles I read all said people were injured by fragments and from bullets hitting objects that then sent shrapnel into people. Also, it is quite possible a bullet could have passed through the gunman and hit someone else.

    It was a really really ugly situation and it sucks nine people got hurt but thank God only the shooter got killed.
    My main function as a Christian is to be the biggest possible jerk as a demonstration of the awe found in God's Grace and Forgiveness. (That love part comes in to play at some point)

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