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Thread: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Is it another sign that freedom in America has disappeared and Big Brother controls all the mass communications channels, the only shows you can dial up is extreme crazy or banality?

    Or is it just my disillusion?

    Somethings wrong when all the news/politics shows are swamped with disinformation, mudslinging bombast and journalism becomes a lost art form.
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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    1. Terrorism is an extremely complex thing, and reducing it to poverty is a simplification. For example the bulk of those who join international terrorist groups tend to be middle class or wealthy, while those who join indigenous ones are more diverse in their socioeconomic background. Even amongst those groups however, suicide bombers tend to come from decently educated and wealthy backgrounds, while fighters and gunmen tend to be poorer.
    Who do you think makes up the majority of terrorist groups? The wealthy may lead them, but they do not make up the majority of them. Further, there are much more "fighters and gunmen" than there are suicide bombers. I would love to see where you pull these beliefs from. Despite popular belief, ideology only goes so far. You are not going to get a lot of rich guys to blow themselves up simply because they believe in something. They have something to live for. If you are speaking of an international, intricate plan like 9/11, sure those guys are middle class and educated. A poor imbecile couldn't pull that off. But how many of those attacks occur? Not many. If we are speaking of the local attacks on troops, in the Phillipines, or in Iraq now they are almost always poor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Moving beyond that point of course military intervention can solve things, and it has solved numerous things in the past. We were successful in Bosnia, Libya, and Kosovo just to name a few recent examples.
    And we did not nation build in any of those countries, Bosnia and Kosovo are still terrorist havens, and Libya is now run by the Muslim Brotherhood and local militias.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    We have the potential to be successful in Iraq and Afghanistan if we choose to.
    These are very different theaters than the ones you name above. In fact, polar opposite theaters. Further, we never put hundreds of thousands of troops in the above 3 countries for years on end. Afghanistan is a lost cause. It's not happening. No country has ever been able to turn them away from their ways and we won't either. Iraq could be good, but they will choose not to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Furthermore you are wrong when you say Bin Laden was on 'our' side or that we funded him. We had no contact with Bin Laden, most of his funds came from Arab donors not ISI conduits, and he did not lash out because his funding was caught off.
    Bin Laden was anything if thankful for us funding fellow mujahideen groups. Then, we decided we were done with those people and left them hanging on empty promises. He may not have gotten a lot of funding from us, but it didn't matter because we cut it off to everyone fighting with him effectively ending his campaign.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    More to the point **** Bin Laden, I don't give a damn if he thinks it was terrible that he wasn't given the opportunity to fight Saddam on his own, it was delusional and would have meant that more than 1/4th of the worlds crude and gas production would have been brought under Saddam's heel.
    And we still could have bought it. So what? No major oil provider, to include the US hating Iranians or Venezuelans, is going to cut off their best customer just because they don't like them. Money talks louder than ideology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    2. Which is why I disagree with your premise. I do not believe we are forcing democracy, we are enabling those who desire democracy to have it.
    They don't desire it! If they did, they would fight for it like we did. That's the point. Your belief is the equivalent to me walking up to someone who has never had ice cream and making them eat ice cream. I know it's good but they don't because they've never had it. As good as it is, they will still never like it because all they see is me holding them down on the floor and shoving ice cream down their throat. Afghani's just want to be left alone and so do Iraqi's. You can fall for the picture of the woman with ink on her fingers all you want. Iraqi's want money, technology, and western culture and they will give up freedom to get those things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Despite the violence in Iraq for example massive majorities support their new democracy and abhor a return to the old method of governance.
    And yet they have the old method. As soon as we left the country Al-Maliki started rounding up all of politicians who opposed him and putting them in jail. Sounds familiar. No uproar over that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Likewise in Afghanistan strong majorities oppose the Taliban and support democratic rule.
    LOL! What strong majority? Where is this mystical strong majority you speak of? Iraq had a majority that wanted Al Qaeda out. I saw that firsthand. Afghanistan? They side with whoever they think will win that day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I'm sure China could imagine that it doesn't like some aspect of our policy. I believe my approach is superior and more moral, if they want to fight about that (and they do) we can have that fight. It does nothing to diminish my perspective.
    You believe your approach is superior and more moral? Who are you that you think that not only is your approach superior and more moral, but that you also have the right to shove down anyone else's throat you see fit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Moreover the geo-strategic importance of the Caucuses, Central Asia, the Middle East, etc is undeniable, and our activities will better support our aspirations in the future.
    Geo-strategic importance only applies if you are attempting to colonize the world or set up an empire. If you are speaking of a global oil market, see my comment above about us being the #1 customer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    3. I don't really care what an internet forum poll says. Aside from being completely unscientific, with certain demographics massively over-represented, it doesn't come close to addressing the point I made.
    People don't care what happens in Syria. You might. Most don't. It doesn't even make a top 10 concerns of Americans list other than for the fact that they are worried we might put troops in there.
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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Please if you could, don't segment your responses into so many little sections, it makes it hard to reference back.

    1. Again as I said there is a major distinction between international terror groups and domestic ones, and two there is a distinction between people who fight as gunmen and rank and file fighters and those who become suicide bombers. I'm happy to cite links that are relevant. Understanding the economic dimension to terrorism - Mar. 13, 2007, What Makes a Terrorist — The American Magazine, NPR: Profile: Look at the Mind of a Suicide Bomber. This reflects the fact that it is rarely difficult to recruit a suicide bomber, and those who become bombers generally do so for ideological reasons, not out of a sense of anti-oppressive vengeance. I can pull a few journal articles if you are interested.

    2. Bosnia and Kosovo have terrorist havens? How so? And the US and our European allies certainly conducted national building in both locations, and we are assisting the Libyan government in its civil reconstruction as we speak.

    3. Many countries have subdued or defeated 'Afghanistan' this is a myth. Furthermore we absolutely can be successful in Afghanistan, and the majority of Afghani's would like to see us succeed, they are simply tired of war and not part of the fighting. They are the silent majority of civilians who have in poll after poll ranked the Taliban as the greatest threat facing Afghanistan. Afghanistan: ABC News National Survey Poll Show Support - ABC News

    4. Bin Laden did not get any funding from the US and he had no relationship with the US. Furthermore US funding which continued after the fall of Najbullah was part of the problem, not the lack of it! Nor did a lack of US funding end Bin Laden's campaign, his campaign ended when Najbullah fell and he established a position for himself as a player in Afghanistan by allying with the Taliban and elements of Hizb-e-Islami to fight Massoud. It was at this time, and a little before, that he began to seriously internationalize his operations.

    5. We could have bought crude from who, Saddam? Because we were in the midst of such a spending glut before? The issue was that we didn't want a psychotic dictator with ambitions to regional hegemony using the oil spigot to try and dominate world and regional affairs while he went on a rampage. That tends to be a bad thing.

    6. Barely 1/3 of Americans actively supported the Patriots, and even less actually bore arms, and they did so against an enemy that was positively genteel by modern standards. Let's not smear the tens of thousands of Afghanis and Iraqi's who have died defending the newfound futures of their country. They support their new democracies and the new systems of government by overwhelming margins, and the majority in each have proven their devotion with ample pounds of flesh. Poll after poll, and funeral after funeral is evidence of this.

    7. Iraq has problems, that have been partially exacerbated by the premature US departure, and yet it is still on a better road than it was.

    8. I do think it is superior and moral, and I'm a rational individual using my arguments and my pulpit as an American citizen to advocate it. Yes I'm willing to spread it by force and topple regimes that oppose it.

    9. It is important for any country that acknowledges that it is global concerns and that it cannot withdraw from world affairs and hope to simply trade. That things like resources, open trade routes, and domestic security rely upon an aggressive global foreign policy.

    10. I don't care if its not in the top ten concerns of most Americans.

    5.

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Who do you think makes up the majority of terrorist groups? The wealthy may lead them, but they do not make up the majority of them. Further, there are much more "fighters and gunmen" than there are suicide bombers. I would love to see where you pull these beliefs from. Despite popular belief, ideology only goes so far. You are not going to get a lot of rich guys to blow themselves up simply because they believe in something. They have something to live for. If you are speaking of an international, intricate plan like 9/11, sure those guys are middle class and educated. A poor imbecile couldn't pull that off. But how many of those attacks occur? Not many. If we are speaking of the local attacks on troops, in the Phillipines, or in Iraq now they are almost always poor.

    And we did not nation build in any of those countries, Bosnia and Kosovo are still terrorist havens, and Libya is now run by the Muslim Brotherhood and local militias.

    These are very different theaters than the ones you name above. In fact, polar opposite theaters. Further, we never put hundreds of thousands of troops in the above 3 countries for years on end. Afghanistan is a lost cause. It's not happening. No country has ever been able to turn them away from their ways and we won't either. Iraq could be good, but they will choose not to be.

    Bin Laden was anything if thankful for us funding fellow mujahideen groups. Then, we decided we were done with those people and left them hanging on empty promises. He may not have gotten a lot of funding from us, but it didn't matter because we cut it off to everyone fighting with him effectively ending his campaign.

    And we still could have bought it. So what? No major oil provider, to include the US hating Iranians or Venezuelans, is going to cut off their best customer just because they don't like them. Money talks louder than ideology.

    They don't desire it! If they did, they would fight for it like we did. That's the point. Your belief is the equivalent to me walking up to someone who has never had ice cream and making them eat ice cream. I know it's good but they don't because they've never had it. As good as it is, they will still never like it because all they see is me holding them down on the floor and shoving ice cream down their throat. Afghani's just want to be left alone and so do Iraqi's. You can fall for the picture of the woman with ink on her fingers all you want. Iraqi's want money, technology, and western culture and they will give up freedom to get those things.

    And yet they have the old method. As soon as we left the country Al-Maliki started rounding up all of politicians who opposed him and putting them in jail. Sounds familiar. No uproar over that.

    LOL! What strong majority? Where is this mystical strong majority you speak of? Iraq had a majority that wanted Al Qaeda out. I saw that firsthand. Afghanistan? They side with whoever they think will win that day.

    You believe your approach is superior and more moral? Who are you that you think that not only is your approach superior and more moral, but that you also have the right to shove down anyone else's throat you see fit?

    Geo-strategic importance only applies if you are attempting to colonize the world or set up an empire. If you are speaking of a global oil market, see my comment above about us being the #1 customer.

    People don't care what happens in Syria. You might. Most don't. It doesn't even make a top 10 concerns of Americans list other than for the fact that they are worried we might put troops in there.
    Outstanding reply, imo.

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post

    8. I do think it is superior and moral, and I'm a rational individual using my arguments and my pulpit as an American citizen to advocate it. Yes I'm willing to spread it by force and topple regimes that oppose it.
    At what price?

    How many innocent Syrian civilians are you willing to kill in collateral damage to topple Assad? How many American lives are you willing to sacrifice?

    And if you are willing to have Americans die to spread your moral superiority - are you willing to give your life to topple Assad?
    Last edited by DA60; 08-29-12 at 10:55 AM.

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Outstanding reply, imo.
    I appreciate that.
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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Geo-strategic importance only applies if you are attempting to colonize the world or set up an empire. If you are speaking of a global oil market, see my comment above about us being the #1 customer.

    People don't care what happens in Syria. You might. Most don't. It doesn't even make a top 10 concerns of Americans list other than for the fact that they are worried we might put troops in there.
    You could not be more wrong about the wars. Your friend Sherman is way off as well.
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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    At what price?

    How many innocent Syrian civilians are you willing to kill in collateral damage to topple Assad? How many American lives are you willing to sacrifice?

    And if you are willing to have Americans die to spread your moral superiority - are you willing to give your life to topple Assad?
    Obama said if Syria (Assad) uses chemical weapons he would pay the price. Is that OK with you if Obama then go in and takes out the Assad regime?
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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    People don't care what happens in Syria. You might. Most don't. It doesn't even make a top 10 concerns of Americans list other than for the fact that they are worried we might put troops in there.

    Rather than saying people don't care, we know Obama don't care, there is no oil in Syria. Obama did go into Libya only because of oil.
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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    Obama said if Syria (Assad) uses chemical weapons he would pay the price. Is that OK with you if Obama then go in and takes out the Assad regime?
    Iran is fixing to dump Syria because the writing is on the wall... Assad is on his way out.. and the issue has been largely a joint effort of Egypt, Turkey and Saudi Arabia. I am glad Obama didn't jump in... It has to be MORE important to the players than it is to the US.

    Meanwhile, the Secular Liberals in Libya beat out the Muslim Brotherhood in July elections.

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