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Thread: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Evidence that President Obama isn't concocting a plan to work with the rebels so they can acquire a chemical weapon from fortified Syrian stockpiles and then figure out a way to covertly and anonymously use them on a civilian target to inflict mass casualties so that the US can then have an artificial cassus belli to intervene? No I do not have that evidence, because it is a conspiracy theory of the first class.
    Exactly.

    So now I no that you condemn/insult people without any hard evidence.

    Noted.


    And btw, my theory is that Obama could smuggle chemical weapons to the rebels from American sources - not Syrian ones.

    I am not saying he will. But I believe if Obama thought he could get away with it by causing a few dozen more Syrian deaths (there have already been hundreds and hundreds die already - what's a few more to a cold hearted POTUS) through a faked Syrian government chemical weapon attack; that gave him the excuse he wants to send troops in to Syria; which would then result (inevitably) in a quick, decisive U.S. victory and guarantee him his re-election?

    Yes, I think almost any POTUS would do that in a heart beat.

    This is the same guy who has approved of rendition, kept Gitmo open, assassinated Americans without trial and deliberately ramped up a useless war in Afghanistan that has caused thousands and thousands more deaths - not to mention all the Americans that have died in it.

    And you think he will think twice about indirectly killing a few faceless no names in a Syrian civil war that has already claimed many times more deaths to help secure the White House for 4 more years?

    Okaaaaaaaay.

    Have I got a deal on some waterfront land in Japan's Fukishima district for you.


    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by DA60; 08-25-12 at 01:17 AM.

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    No one is saying that the rebels are paragons of virtue. What people are saying is that Assad is the cause of this conflict as a direct result of his Baath party dictatorship, and that people are rising up to combat that oppression. Defeats in the field, frustration, and pent up anger easily explain the less than virtuous tactics of many Syrian militias. That being said its still pretty clear to me which side I'm on, and which side I want to win.
    You seem to be making a distinction without a differnce. The premise I made was we really don't give a damn about "war crimes" of any kind as long as our side wins as demonstrated by our past and current actions.

    I really don't buy we are doing it for democracy either. While we would be ok with right kind of democracy emerging anywhere I really don't believe that our love for democracy is the reason we are in Syria. The Iran issue is obvious but even Iran is really just a means to an ends.

    Who knows if I'm right but looking at America, NATO or the Anglo-Empire the most obvious thing that I notice is BRICS nearing the point ,if not already there, of being able to hand us our a** economically speaking. We still have have a few advantages specifically control of the international banking systems, military firepower and the petrodollar. We are really bankrupt on ideas, infrastructure and production of goods although we are still fairly strong on farming. Given this perspective I really don't believe Syria or any of our recent actions are about democracy or the oppression in those places. Instead I believe it is about the creation of mini-states by stirring up sectarian violence. In a nutshell we can't produce more brains than India, we can't be more productive than China and Russia has brains and resources therefore we choose to try and create strategic advantage through military force. While those tactics may work I would rather have our advantages through more brains and productivity.

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    You seem to be making a distinction without a differnce. The premise I made was we really don't give a damn about "war crimes" of any kind as long as our side wins as demonstrated by our past and current actions.

    I really don't buy we are doing it for democracy either. While we would be ok with right kind of democracy emerging anywhere I really don't believe that our love for democracy is the reason we are in Syria. The Iran issue is obvious but even Iran is really just a means to an ends.

    Who knows if I'm right but looking at America, NATO or the Anglo-Empire the most obvious thing that I notice is BRICS nearing the point ,if not already there, of being able to hand us our a** economically speaking. We still have have a few advantages specifically control of the international banking systems, military firepower and the petrodollar. We are really bankrupt on ideas, infrastructure and production of goods although we are still fairly strong on farming. Given this perspective I really don't believe Syria or any of our recent actions are about democracy or the oppression in those places. Instead I believe it is about the creation of mini-states by stirring up sectarian violence. In a nutshell we can't produce more brains than India, we can't be more productive than China and Russia has brains and resources therefore we choose to try and create strategic advantage through military force. While those tactics may work I would rather have our advantages through more brains and productivity.
    We do care about war-crimes, there is simply an enormous difference in scale between the crimes committed by the rebels and their choice of targets, and the crimes being committed by Syrian security forces. There is also a profound difference between their motivations and overall goals, and the environment they are operating in. These two things generally inform us with regard to picking a side. Furthermore there is nothing wrong with utilitarianism in pursuit of a good cause.

    Furthermore we aren't in Syria, and we should be supporting the rebels because of a vigorous pursuit of a democratic agenda. This agenda is in our moral and strategic interests as it cultivates a more peaceful region and undercuts our opponents in places like Iran. We aren't tainted because we get benefit from something that we do.

    I also don't know what to say about your final paragraph. I don't believe it is anywhere near the case that we are having our 'asses handed to us' economically, I think that is a grossly misleading statement. I also don't know what the Anglo-Empire is, but I'm just going to presume you are talking about the developed world i.e the US, Europe, Canada, South Korea, Japan, etc. In which case yes we have many advantages, but I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. Of course we try and create strategic advantage with military force when possible, what else would we do? But part of our strategic objectives include fostering democratic states which act as a blunt against autocratic influence from China and Russia, and furthermore by tightening relations and building alliances with democratic powers... like India.

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Exactly.

    So now I no that you condemn/insult people without any hard evidence.

    Noted.


    And btw, my theory is that Obama could smuggle chemical weapons to the rebels from American sources - not Syrian ones.

    I am not saying he will. But I believe if Obama thought he could get away with it by causing a few dozen more Syrian deaths (there have already been hundreds and hundreds die already - what's a few more to a cold hearted POTUS) through a faked Syrian government chemical weapon attack; that gave him the excuse he wants to send troops in to Syria; which would then result (inevitably) in a quick, decisive U.S. victory and guarantee him his re-election?

    Yes, I think almost any POTUS would do that in a heart beat.

    This is the same guy who has approved of rendition, kept Gitmo open, assassinated Americans without trial and deliberately ramped up a useless war in Afghanistan that has caused thousands and thousands more deaths - not to mention all the Americans that have died in it.

    And you think he will think twice about indirectly killing a few faceless no names in a Syrian civil war that has already claimed many times more deaths to help secure the White House for 4 more years?

    Okaaaaaaaay.

    Have I got a deal on some waterfront land in Japan's Fukishima district for you.


    Have a nice day.
    You are asserting a conspiracy theory, a pretty outrageous one at that, the onus isn't on me to prove anything.

    My evidence is the present state of affairs and released information. I think it is ludicrous to believe that with as many opportunities the President has had to get involved in Syria (with rebels and regional governments directly asking for military assistance) he would potentially destroy all US influence and credibility by orchestrating a chemical war crime in Syria, in what would be if uncovered one of the most disastrous US foreign policy misstep of the past half century, just so he could intervene. If the President wants to intervene and push US intervention he has Western European support, he has Gulf support, he has Turkish support, and he has of course support from the FSA. He doesn't need to gas some children to do it

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    You are asserting a conspiracy theory, a pretty outrageous one at that, the onus isn't on me to prove anything.
    Wrong pal.

    You were the one that stated that I am 'ludicrously paranoid'...you initiated the slander.

    It is up to you to prove the factual basis for your slander - and since you admit you cannot, then it is you that we now know goes around defaming others without proof.

    If you had said, 'I disagree with you.'; Or, 'I think that theory is totally wrong.'; fine.

    But you didn't.

    You chose to say I am 'ludicrously paranoid' without a shred of unbiased, factual evidence to back it up.

    As I said...noted.

    I am done with you on this.


    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by DA60; 08-25-12 at 02:37 AM.

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Wrong pal.

    You were the one that stated that I am 'ludicrously paranoid'...you initiated the slander.

    It is up to you to prove the factual basis for your slander - and since you admit you cannot, then it is you that we now know goes around defaming others without proof.

    If you had said, 'I disagree with you.'; Or, 'I think that theory is totally wrong.'; fine.

    But you didn't.

    You chose to say I am 'ludicrously paranoid' without a shred of unbiased, factual evidence to back it up.

    As I said...noted.

    I am done with you on this.


    Have a nice day.
    It is ludicrously paranoid and conspiratorial. There is no need to say 'originally you said' because I stand exactly behind what I said. The factual basis for my 'slander' is self-evident. You think the President would orchestrate a scenario in which he abets or allows the Syrian rebels to acquire chemical weapons and delivery systems from a fortified Syrian facility to then disperse so that civilians can be murdered wholesale in some town to give the US pretext to intervene. That is crazy, and it is paranoid. Sorry if that's news to you.

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    It is ludicrously paranoid and conspiratorial. There is no need to say 'originally you said' because I stand exactly behind what I said. The factual basis for my 'slander' is self-evident. You think the President would orchestrate a scenario in which he abets or allows the Syrian rebels to acquire chemical weapons and delivery systems from a fortified Syrian facility to then disperse so that civilians can be murdered wholesale in some town to give the US pretext to intervene. That is crazy, and it is paranoid. Sorry if that's news to you.
    Ahhh....no.

    The Prez gets the CIA to smuggle into the rebels (probably from a third party so it cannot be traced back to Washington) whatever the minimum number of mortar shells containing a chemical weapon (that Syria is believed to possess) that would be required to kill about a dozen people in a tiny village would be. Though make sure the mortar/shells are standard issue for the government forces so it appears they perpetrated the attack (I say mortar because I assume the rebels do not have proper artillery).
    Afterwards, get the rebels to scream bloody murder, get tons of film/pictures of the devastation, make sure at least one 'expert' is conveniently on hand to confirm that indeed chemical weapons were used.
    And presto - a shocking international incident that forces the Russians/Chinese to back off their support for Assad PLUS Obama has his excuse to go in and bomb the Syrian government forces back to the stone age and guarantee the eventual overthrow of Assad. Plus, rid America of one of Iran's most loyal allies at the same time.
    But the real prize would be a large rise in popular support among American undecided voters (like during the Egyptian civil war) which practically guarantees four more years for Obama.

    And all it cost Obama is the deaths of about a dozen nameless Syrians (sure, that is a dozen too many to most people - but these are politicians, they are not like 'most' people, imo).

    And you honestly think that if presented with that scenario that almost any POTUS would not jump at the chance?

    Okay....let me know about your decision on that waterfront property in Fukishima.


    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by DA60; 08-25-12 at 07:56 AM.

  8. #38
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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Because its a moral travesty, and because it sets the precedent of the utilization of weapons of mass destruction specifically chemical weapons on a conventional scale in the modern era. That is a bad thing.
    Saddam Hussein used chemicals on his own country. No one in the region saw that as a starting gun to use theirs. In addition, Iraq didn't even use chemical weapons on us. Is it a moral travesty? Yes, it is. Is it OUR moral travesty? No, its not. We've had moral travesties in this country, no one's interfered with them. What makes us so special that we can do that to someone else?
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    It is ludicrously paranoid and conspiratorial. There is no need to say 'originally you said' because I stand exactly behind what I said. The factual basis for my 'slander' is self-evident. You think the President would orchestrate a scenario in which he abets or allows the Syrian rebels to acquire chemical weapons and delivery systems from a fortified Syrian facility to then disperse so that civilians can be murdered wholesale in some town to give the US pretext to intervene. That is crazy, and it is paranoid. Sorry if that's news to you.
    Or, to put it another way...over 1,300 Americans have died in Iraq since Obama took office.

    And you honestly think he is going to suddenly go all squeamish over the prospect of 10-12 Syrian civilians being killed just because they died through chemical weapons if he thinks this will give him the excuse he needs to start bombing Assad?

    And remember, he is not killing these people. Their own people are doing the killing. He is just furnishing them with a means that the rebels can win the war.

    In fact, I bet you the rebels could probably find a dozen volunteers to throw down their lives to act as the 'innocent civilians' that are killed by chemical weapons so as to buy their people a chance at freedom from Assad.
    Actually, I guarantee you they could find a dozen potential martyrs to volunteer.

    You gotta learn to start to think outside the box.


    Have a nice day.

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    Re: Obama Warns Syria on Chemical Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Ahhh....no.

    The Prez gets the CIA to smuggle into the rebels (probably from a third party so it cannot be traced back to Washington) whatever the minimum number of mortar shells containing a chemical weapon (that Syria is believed to possess) that would be required to kill about a dozen people in a tiny village would be. Though make sure the mortar/shells are standard issue for the government forces so it appears they perpetrated the attack (I say mortar because I assume the rebels do not have proper artillery).
    Afterwards, get the rebels to scream bloody murder, get tons of film/pictures of the devastation, make sure at least one 'expert' is conveniently on hand to confirm that indeed chemical weapons were used.
    And presto - a shocking international incident that forces the Russians/Chinese to back off their support for Assad PLUS Obama has his excuse to go in and bomb the Syrian government forces back to the stone age and guarantee the eventual overthrow of Assad. Plus, rid America of one of Iran's most loyal allies at the same time.
    But the real prize would be a large rise in popular support among American undecided voters (like during the Egyptian civil war) which practically guarantees four more years for Obama.

    And all it cost Obama is the deaths of about a dozen nameless Syrians (sure, that is a dozen too many to most people - but these are politicians, they are not like 'most' people, imo).

    And you honestly think that if presented with that scenario that almost any POTUS would not jump at the chance?

    Okay....let me know about your decision on that waterfront property in Fukishima.


    Have a nice day.
    Yes, and that is ludicrously paranoid. The President of the United States is going to smuggle some chemical binary shells to the Syrian rebels, so they can gas a village of a few dozen people, and pass it off as the Syrian governments work. That is insane. If the President wanted to get more aggressively involved in Syria he could. He has FSA and SNC representatives hounding the halls of the State Department asking for money, guns, and even a no fly zone and buffer zone from Turkey. There is regional support from the Gulf States and Turkey, there is support from Europe in the form of France and the UK, etc. He doesn't need to risk the destruction of US foreign policy credibility, and the implosion of his administration, by carrying out this insanely convoluted plan that might not even yield anything.

    Despite what partisan rancor might suggest elected official tend to not be psychotic nefarious individuals with spy thriller film plots that they want to enact.

    Furthermore if ANY President would jump at the chance why hasn't it happened? It's been more than 15 months of fighting, and at least 3 or 4 months since we heard about the dispersal of Syria's chemical weapons stockpiles to more secure locations.

    I repeat: Ludicrous, paranoid, and conspiratorial.

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