California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

Infinite Chaos · Aug 22, 2012

Tucker Case said:
There's the bitch about it. I don't care how good a person is at construction, if they didn't get laid off at least once or lose their job entirely during this past economic downturn, they are lucky as all hell. And teh bitch about it is, the best were often let go first because the best are also the highest paid.

The best trades and manual workers usually have "foreigners" going on at the same time. A very good friend who does roofing work on a couple of my houses got his own business through "foreigners" and the day job for a roofing company got in the way.

Tucker Case said:
-- Absolutely. But backbreaking labor is a young man's game, for the most part.

I was speaking in context of the thread - there seems to be high unemployment among California's young but lots of jobs going around.

Tucker Case · Aug 22, 2012

muciti said:
It is not being exploited. It is low skill work that anyone could do.

Ah, I see you've never done it. That explains it. Not just anyone can do those jobs. Just because it doesn't require learnable skills doesn't mean it's something anyone can do. There are many natural traits a person must have in order to do that work day in, day out, for any amount of time.

If you aren't working anywhere else, you need to be out there working where someone is offering.

Why do you "need" to be working where someone is offering? Are you saying that if you lost your job and someone offered you this load of ****, you'd take it right away simply because you aren't working anywhere else and you need to be working where someoen is offering?

It is above minimum wage.

Not by nearly enough to make it superior to an easy minimum wage job.

Tell me the realistic option. Not stupid **** like

Well I guess if you say so, I should consider it to be gospel, since you've proven yourself to be such a superior intellect with incredible reading comprehension skills. :roll:

Because that is not happening. People here are going to buy what is cheapest. That is a fact.

Didn't comprehend what you read, did you? If what I just described occurred, foreign crap wouldn't be the cheapest anymore. It'd be of equal or greater price.

If you don't bleieve it go sit outside a walmart for an hour then go to a grocery store that pays well.

If my proposal was enacted, that wouldn't be the case anymore. Since people cannot be trusted to do the right thing themselves, they should no longer be given the option to make the ****ty choices because greedy bastards who do not do any work for their livings will exploit their innate stupidity every time, even though it ultimately harms them.

Put an american made product at 20/hr next to a chinese one made at $1/hr. See which people buy. Reality is a bitch but it is reality.

You really didn't undestrand a word of it, did you?

So by all means please let me know a solution that is grounded in reality.

Haw about, instead of fruitlessly explaining something you won't comprehend again, you just let me know when you have the basic reading comprehension skills necessary to understand it, and then I'll redirect you back to the original quote of it. Deal?

Your idea of become a scumbag criminal to avoid actually having to work is pathetic.

Where did you get the insanely stupid idea that I said anything like that?

If you want to resort to that I hope one of the people you choose to rob is armed.

Who said anything about robbing? Do you have some sort of hallucinatory disorder that causes you to see words written that are not there?

I honestly dont care what you suddenly want to claim as an e-dentity.

In your world, does 4 years of consistency equate to "suddenly"? I'm trying to get a guage on your total vocalubarly here to make sure I use words that you have some chance of comphrehending.

You are clearly stating you would rather be a criminal then earn a living.

I'm really starting to think that there is a hallucinatory disorder, because I clearly never said that.

Dont try to sell me on stories about how you do actually do hard work.

Did. It's the past tense of "do". And I know that I've done harder work than you've ever done, because you are so utterly clueless about hard work it's scary.

Nobody, but nobody, that has really worked in their lives would be willing to work doing back breaking labor for $9 an hour when easy work is available for the same wage or close enough to it that a second job would make up the difference in about 5 hours a week.

What crime are you resorting to then?

Not quite sure, since I've never been put in a position where I had to choose between a life of crime and moving to California to pick fruits and veggies for $9/hour. Probably something gambling-related, like an illegal poker house, since I actually have an idea how to start something like that.

Kreton · Aug 22, 2012

Tucker Case said:
Ah, I see you've never done it. That explains it. Not just anyone can do those jobs. Just because it doesn't require learnable skills doesn't mean it's something anyone can do. There are many natural traits a person must have in order to do that work day in, day out, for any amount of time.

Why do you "need" to be working where someone is offering? Are you saying that if you lost your job and someone offered you this load of ****, you'd take it right away simply because you aren't working anywhere else and you need to be working where someoen is offering?

Not by nearly enough to make it superior to an easy minimum wage job.

Well I guess if you say so, I should consider it to be gospel, since you've proven yourself to be such a superior intellect with incredible reading comprehension skills. :roll:

Didn't comprehend what you read, did you? If what I just described occurred, foreign crap wouldn't be the cheapest anymore. It'd be of equal or greater price.

If my proposal was enacted, that wouldn't be the case anymore. Since people cannot be trusted to do the right thing themselves, they should no longer be given the option to make the ****ty choices because greedy bastards who do not do any work for their livings will exploit their innate stupidity every time, even though it ultimately harms them.

You really didn't undestrand a word of it, did you?

Haw about, instead of fruitlessly explaining something you won't comprehend again, you just let me know when you have the basic reading comprehension skills necessary to understand it, and then I'll redirect you back to the original quote of it. Deal?

Where did you get the insanely stupid idea that I said anything like that?

Who said anything about robbing? Do you have some sort of hallucinatory disorder that causes you to see words written that are not there?

In your world, does 4 years of consistency equate to "suddenly"? I'm trying to get a guage on your total vocalubarly here to make sure I use words that you have some chance of comphrehending.

I'm really starting to think that there is a hallucinatory disorder, because I clearly never said that.

Did. It's the past tense of "do". And I know that I've done harder work than you've ever done, because you are so utterly clueless about hard work it's scary.

Nobody, but nobody, that has really worked in their lives would be willing to work doing back breaking labor for $9 an hour when easy work is available for the same wage or close enough to it that a second job would make up the difference in about 5 hours a week.

Not quite sure, since I've never been put in a position where I had to choose between a life of crime and moving to California to pick fruits and veggies for $9/hour. Probably something gambling-related, like an illegal poker house, since I actually have an idea how to start something like that.

All that to say you dont want to reply to what i posted? You want to call me out for comprehension because you failed to understand what I wrote

I will simplify it for you

Your idea above is not reality. The reality is foreign products are cheaper. The reality is Americans do not buy American goods for that reason. Raising labor costs is not going to make Americans buy more American goods. In fact it will reduce the amount of goods bought and force businesses to close. Whether you like the option or not that is reality. You can fantisize about a world where foreign products are more expensive but it isnt happening.

Tucker Case · Aug 22, 2012

Infinite Chaos said:
The best trades and manual workers usually have "foreigners" going on at the same time. A very good friend who does roofing work on a couple of my houses got his own business through "foreigners" and the day job for a roofing company got in the way.

Oh, absolutely. don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Immigrants at all. I was one of the few American-born people in most of the jobs I did, but I'm an immigrants kid. when I talk abut foreign labor, I don't mean immigrants. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I was speaking in context of the thread - there seems to be high unemployment among California's young but lots of jobs going around.

Gotcha. I think there was a misunderstanding with what I was saying. I didn't mean anything about "immigrants" when I said "migrant farm work". I meant farm jobs where you have to move with the work based on the seasons. Immigrants typically are the people working these jobs, but that's merely a linguistic coincidence rather than anything else.

Tucker Case · Aug 22, 2012

muciti said:
All that to say you dont want to reply to what i posted?

I did reply. You made false claims about what I said, and I corrected your misunderstandings.

You want to call me out for comprehension because you failed to understand what I wrote

I will simplify it for you

Well let's see, then.

Your idea above is not reality. The reality is foreign products are cheaper. The reality is Americans do not buy American goods for that reason. Raising labor costs is not going to make Americans buy more American goods. In fact it will reduce the amount of goods bought and force businesses to close. Whether you like the option or not that is reality.

Yep. You still didn't understand what you were responding to. This simpler version of the same thing that was wrong before, remains wrong. Fascinating how that works.

You can fantisize about a world where foreign products are more expensive but it isnt happening.

Do you know what a tariff is and what it does?

Kreton · Aug 22, 2012

Tucker Case said:
Yep. You still didn't understand what you were responding to. This simpler version of the same thing that was wrong before, remains wrong. Fascinating how that works.

By all means explain where I am wrong

Do you know what a tariff is and what it does?

yes I do. The question is does this tariff exist? Again lets stick to reality. The reality is the farms already pay more than other countries do and by a lot. And because of that they have to charge more. Because they charge more people dont buy as much. With our current laws, without injecting fantasy, what realistic option do these farmers have?

As far as I can tell they can

Raise prices and offer more for labor which would result in them losing their farms

or

Hire illegals

or

Americans lazy asses can go work for the 9.25 hour and support themselves and hope not to get robbed by the idiots who think crime is an alternative to labor

majora$$hole · Aug 22, 2012

Camlon said:
If you earn 9.50 per hour, then there is no need to live like that. You can share a house with some friends for about 50 USD per week in the small towns. And earning 9.50 per hour, if you work 10 hours a day, 5.5 days a week, then you will earn 522 USD per week.

I really don't know why more young people are not doing it. It sounds like a good way to save up some money and get some experience. Sound better than staying home doing nothing.

not true about a quarter of that $522 goes to fed income tax right off the top.

Kreton · Aug 22, 2012

majora$$hole said:
not true about a quarter of that $522 goes to fed income tax right off the top.

if you are making that little amount of money they are not going to take much in taxes, and what they do take in taxes you get back plus some in most cases.

Blue_State · Aug 22, 2012

majora$$hole said:
not true about a quarter of that $522 goes to fed income tax right off the top.

You really don't get taxed at sub 500 a week. Maybe state, but that is a state to state issue.

ChuckBerry · Aug 22, 2012

Tucker Case said:
When your income depends on your mobility, though, you put that cast on and get back to work ASAP. In that instance, it was about a week before I was hauling lumber around again.

For that week though you were still lumbering around.

Yeah, got to stop it with the puns.

Tucker Case · Aug 22, 2012

muciti said:
By all means explain where I am wrong

See the words that you have written? There.

The question is does this tariff exist?

Of course not. Why would I say that such tariffs should be put in place if they were already in place? Simple common sense.

Again lets stick to reality.

You live in a "reality" where new laws cannot be passed?

The reality is the farms already pay more than other countries do and by a lot.

Thus the need for tariffs and other taxes.

And because of that they have to charge more.

Thus the need for tariffs and other taxes.

Because they charge more people dont buy as much.

Thus the need for tariffs and other taxes.

With our current laws, without injecting fantasy, what realistic option do these farmers have?

Why do you have the preposterous belief that changing the current lwas is not a realistic option?

As far as I can tell they can

Raise prices and offer more for labor which would result in them losing their farms

or

Hire illegals

or

Americans lazy asses can go work for the 9.25 hour and support themselves and hope not to get robbed by the idiots who think crime is an alternative to labor

False.

If you are just talking abut what the farm owners can do, they can:

A. Raise wages to a fair level commensurate with the effort which Americans and legal immigrants are willing to work for, potentially losing their farms from it but if that happens, it was the farmers own stupid decision to become a farmer when they new it required exploitation of their work force to be sustainable that caused their woes and nothing else.

or

B. Hire/exploit illegals who are willing to work at that pay because they have severely limited options

or

C. Get into a line of work where they can make their living honestly without needing to exploit others for personal gain

They have no control over what Americans will or will not work for, nor should they. If they can't find employees at a level which the economy will sustain, then they have to find a new way to earn their income. Tough **** for them. It's not the American workers duty to break their back to sustain the income of these farmers. Nor is it the duty of the illegals to do it, but illegals have limited choices so they are easily exploited by said scumbag farmers.

I feel about as bad for these farmers as I do for the idiots who buy big screen TVs from Wal Mart that are made in China that bitch about outsourcing jobs.

The real problem is that people in this country will not pay higher prices by choice in order to sustain their own economy. Companies only care about their own bottom line and profit margins (which is all they should care about) so they will sell these fools what they are willing to buy, no matter how much doing so ****s them in the long run.

Tucker Case · Aug 22, 2012

ChuckBerry said:
For that week though you were still lumbering around.

Yeah, got to stop it with the puns.

I don't know, I got a kick out of it.

Wiseone · Aug 22, 2012

PeteEU said:
So you would be willing to move yourself, your wife (if you got one) and children (if you have any) several hundred if not thousands of miles away for a minimum wage job? You would be willing to take a loss on your home, and move to an area with higher home prices ... for a minimum wage job, that is seasonal and temporary?

cpwill said:
:lol: that sounds alot like what I do now :lol:

What part of the Marine Corps is:
A) Minimum Wage
B) Seasonal or Temporary
C) Requires you to take a loss on your home.

We all know military pay is far above minimum wage, even for a lowly private especially considering he'll never starve because his pay is tapped for his meals and he lives for free in the barracks. And obviously your pay doesn't stop or decrease based on the time of year.

You may take a loss on your room if you're a Marine who lives off post and purchased a home and then decided to sell, but if you're living on post there's no need to take a loss when you move because the house is owned by the government. Also if you live off post you earn extra money in Basic Housing Allowance which should cover rent, and since you know being in the military that you may move every few years why would you buy a house anyway? Of course some military members don't move that often and are really able to settle down in one place, I don't know if that's you or not.

And lastly, the government pays for your move or gives you money to do it yourself which is normally a pretty good deal if you do it right. And lets not forget the medical coverage that comes with being in the military.

LiberalAvenger · Aug 22, 2012

Infinite Chaos said:
Is that an offer?

Visitor or naturalised US citizen?

born in the usa

clownboy · Aug 22, 2012

So, after California has virtually thrown open it's doors to illegals they don't want to work in the fields there. They will in other states, and it seems like the illegals keep streaming into the states where they're least welcomed.

So is it because the illegals have stopped calling California home, or because it's been made so good for them there that they no longer need to work?

Kreton · Aug 22, 2012

Tucker Case said:
See the words that you have written? There.

I didnt think you were actually going to do it.

You live in a "reality" where new laws cannot be passed?

I live in a reality where these laws do not exist. They are not there. These farmers cannot make a living on laws we'd like to see. They have to live with laws that exist. So again I am going to ask you for what they should do in reality.

So lets look at your options

A. Raise wages to a fair level commensurate with the effort which Americans and legal immigrants are willing to work for, potentially losing their farms from it but if that happens, it was the farmers own stupid decision to become a farmer when they new it required exploitation of their work force to be sustainable that caused their woes and nothing else.

So for trying to run a business and work for a living they are stupid. I guess they too should resort to crime or welfare.

B. Hire/exploit illegals who are willing to work at that pay because they have severely limited options

Your second option also invoves illegal activity. No surprise there.

C. Get into a line of work where they can make their living honestly without needing to exploit others for personal gain

Paying above minimum wage for unskilled labor is not exploiting anyone. You can stop with that stupidity anytime. So in your opinion the job creators in this country should shut down and go work elsewhere? Where exactly should they go work? How is shutting down American businesses a good idea?

They have no control over what Americans will or will not work for, nor should they. If they can't find employees at a level which the economy will sustain, then they have to find a new way to earn their income. Tough **** for them. It's not the American workers duty to break their back to sustain the income of these farmers. Nor is it the duty of the illegals to do it, but illegals have limited choices so they are easily exploited by said scumbag farmers.

Trying to keep your business open does not make you a scumbag. These farmers are faced with the reality of today shoppers. They are providing goods, made here in America, and employing people. And you think they are scum? These men are the types of men who built this country. They are making products here, and employing people, paying taxes and helping keep our economy alive and you would rather they shut down the farms, let foreign companies run the market and resort to crime or welfare.

The real problem is that people in this country will not pay higher prices by choice in order to sustain their own economy. Companies only care about their own bottom line and profit margins (which is all they should care about) so they will sell these fools what they are willing to buy, no matter how much doing so ****s them in the long run.

That IS a problem. That is the problem these farmers are faced with. Please tell me how the farmers are supposed to change how the American consumer spends?

Ikari · Aug 22, 2012

Wiseone said:
That's the plot to the Grapes of Wrath, not the solution to our economic problems.

Why not? Apparently the plot to 1984 was the solution to our government problems.

Kreton · Aug 22, 2012

Actually I thought of a good solution. Cut off the welfare for these lazy pieces of **** who just dont want to work, shoot the ones who resort to crime then watch them line up to work when they get hungry enough. Its one thing to be on welfare because you can't find a job, its another to be on welfare because you dont want to do the jobs that are existing.

Ikari · Aug 22, 2012

muciti said:
Actually I thought of a good solution. Cut off the welfare for these lazy pieces of **** who just dont want to work, shoot the ones who resort to crime then watch them line up to work when they get hungry enough. Its one thing to be on welfare because you can't find a job, its another to be on welfare because you dont want to do the jobs that are existing.

Why stop there? We should take everyone on welfare and send them to "reeducation" camps where they will be taught the value of a hard day's work or shot on the spot!

Do you people ever listen to the crap that comes out of your mouths, or is this more stream of consciousness stuff here?

Kreton · Aug 22, 2012

Ikari said:
Why stop there? We should take everyone on welfare and send them to "reeducation" camps where they will be taught the value of a hard day's work or shot on the spot!

Do you people ever listen to the crap that comes out of your mouths, or is this more stream of consciousness stuff here?

If you are able to work, and a job opportunity exists and you refuse to do it, then I'd say you need to be taught the value of of hardwork. Best way to do that would be to simply cut them off. If you are refusing to work for your money when you are able you dont deserve my tax dollars to support yourself.

Ikari · Aug 22, 2012

muciti said:
If you are able to work, and a job opportunity exists and you refuse to do it, then I'd say you need to be taught the value of of hardwork. Best way to do that would be to simply cut them off. If you are refusing to work for your money when you are able you dont deserve my tax dollars to support yourself.

And so we can throw them on a train, send them off to some camp somewhere to teach them to work......or else!

I fear that some of y'all so oversimplify the dynamics of this system that you trap yourself in 1 dimensional thinking which cannot even begin to accurately describe nor diagnose the system on hand. I don't know, my opinion is that people of such persuasion should never be listened to because they will never draw a proper solution.

Kreton · Aug 22, 2012

Ikari said:
And so we can throw them on a train, send them off to some camp somewhere to teach them to work......or else!

I fear that some of y'all so oversimplify the dynamics of this system that you trap yourself in 1 dimensional thinking which cannot even begin to accurately describe nor diagnose the system on hand. I don't know, my opinion is that people of such persuasion should never be listened to because they will never draw a proper solution.

What is the solution? When you have able bodied people who refuse to work and there are jobs for them to do? What should be done for those who refuse to work?

Ikari · Aug 22, 2012

muciti said:
What is the solution? When you have able bodied people who refuse to work and there are jobs for them to do? What should be done for those who refuse to work?

WTF is this? Soviet Russia?

Some people may refuse to work for various reasons, a certain percentage will be lazy, another percentage may be disabled, another may not have means to relocate, etc. Getting rid of welfare isn't a solution as you will find yourself in deeper trouble when homeless rates skyrocket and crime goes through the roof in many areas and we'll all have to spend more money combating that problem than if we just floated some people along. Part of the problem is the current construct of welfare wherein it may make more financial sense for a family to stay on welfare than to take some jobs. You could address that problem. Some of these jobs only illegals worked because the didn't meet US standards for jobs, you could address that problem as well. There are a myriad of possible routes to go that isn't to shoot them or huck them onto the streets.

Tucker Case · Aug 22, 2012

muciti said:
so for trying to run a business and work for a living they are stupid. I guess they too should resort to crime or welfare.

No, for trying to run a business that cannot be sustained without exploiting their labor force, they are scumbags. They are idiots for not having a viable alternative to exploitation.

Your second option also invoves illegal activity. No surprise there.

It was your second option, too, genius. :lol:

Paying above minimum wage for unskilled labor is not exploiting anyone.

Paying less than the market will bare by using employees that have highly limited options is, pretty much by definition, exploitation. I'm sorry you have a poor vocabulary, but you'll have ot take it up with the morons who failed in your education, not me.

You can stop with that stupidity anytime.

says teh guy who forgot his second option and doesn't know what exploitation means.

So in your opinion the job creators in this country should shut down and go work elsewhere?

Uh, having open positions that nobody is willing to fill doesn't mean they are job creators. It means they have a failing business model.

Where exactly should they go work?

What the **** do I care where they work?

How is shutting down American businesses a good idea?

Businesses with bad business models need to fail because they drag down the economy whilst they sputter. The farming industry in California clearly has a failed business model. Boo ****ing hoo.

Trying to keep your business open does not make you a scumbag.

No, exploiting the labor force does. They have a faile dbusiness model that relies on exploitation, ergo, they are scumbag ******s whining about their failures.

These farmers are faced with the reality of today shoppers.

No, they are faced with the reality of their ****ty business model.

The only thing they are victim to is their own stupidity for having a business model requires the exploitation of thier labor force.

They are providing goods, made here in America, and employing people.

They aren't employing people. Stick to reality, as in tehy can't get anyone to do the ****ty job they offer for th e****ty pay they offer. BAd business models. Best way to fail in business. .

And you think they are scum?

Cause they exploit their labor force.

These men are the types of men who built this country.

Absolutely. Scumbag slave owners who exploited their labor force did build this country. You aren't wrong at all on that. Why do you have the retaded idea that that matters here, though?

They are making products here, and employing people, paying taxes and helping keep our economy alive and you would rather they shut down the farms, let foreign companies run the market and resort to crime or welfare.

They are making money here by exploiting workers who have limited options and they are dragging our economy down by having a ****ty business model that cannot be sustained. They will soon be looking for handouts like most of the ****ty business owners who suffer due to their own stupidity in designing their business models (AKA banks, auto industry, etc)

That IS a problem.

I know, but unlike you I'm not just whining about the problem. I'm offering solutions based on the reality that is the innate stupidity of mankind. That problem can only be solved by changing the current laws and allowing businesses which rely on bad business models (like these farms) to fail.

That is the problem these farmers are faced with.

No, they are faced with the fact that their business model sucks.

Please tell me how the farmers are supposed to change how the American consumer spends?

Operate using a good business model instead of a ****ty one. They have nobody but themselves to blame for their failures. They aren't victims of circumstances because they created the circumstances in which they reside.

If you own a business, and you don't have the foresight to change your business model to suit reality you do not deserve to have a business any more.

Ask yourself this: Would you rather work 45 hours a week in an easy job or 40 hours a week in back breaking labor in order to earn the same total income? If your business model is such that the people you wish to employ have such choices, the problem is with your ****ty business model, not the labor force.

Tucker Case · Aug 22, 2012

muciti said:
....then I'd say you need to be taught the value of of hardwork.....

The value of hard work is precisely **** all more than the value of easy work at those wages. These farm owners are the ones who need to be taught the value of hard work. They have been getting it done for them for way too cheap for way too long, apparently.

California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

Infinite Chaos

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3

Kreton

Doesn't know

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3

Kreton

Doesn't know

majora$$hole

Kreton

Doesn't know

Blue_State

ChuckBerry

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3

Wiseone

LiberalAvenger

clownboy

Kreton

Doesn't know

Ikari

Kreton

Doesn't know

Ikari

Kreton

Doesn't know

Ikari

Kreton

Doesn't know

Ikari

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3