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Thread: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

  1. #131
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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    No, for trying to run a business that cannot be sustained without exploiting their labor force, they are scumbags. They are idiots for not having a viable alternative to exploitation.
    Considering they pay well above the industry standard your are not correct.

    Paying less than the market will bare by using employees that have highly limited options is, pretty much by definition, exploitation. I'm sorry you have a poor vocabulary, but you'll have ot take it up with the morons who failed in your education, not me.
    How are they paying less than the market? I would guess outside the US the market for field labor is less than $2/hr and inside the US that is the norm.

    What the **** do I care where they work?
    You are suggesting that they shut down their business and lay off their current employees which are probably in the 10's of thousands. So we would be injecting that many more people into an already overcrowded welfare base.

    Cause they exploit their labor force.
    You have yet to explain that.

    I know, but unlike you I'm not just whining about the problem. I'm offering solutions based on the reality that is the innate stupidity of mankind. That problem can only be solved by changing the current laws and allowing businesses which rely on bad business models (like these farms) to fail.
    Your suggestions on how to fix it are not reality. These farmers cannot run their businesses on your ideas. They have to deal with existing laws and the existing market and the existing spending habits of their customer bases.

    Operate using a good business model instead of a ****ty one.
    Explain a business model using existing laws.

    Ask yourself this: Would you rather work 45 hours a week in an easy job or 40 hours a week in back breaking labor in order to earn the same total income?
    These people dont have the option. They are not working and there is a labor intensive job being offered. The option they are looking at is be a leech or work.

    If your business model is such that the people you wish to employ have such choices, the problem is with your ****ty business model, not the labor force.
    It is not their business model. it is the industries business model. Again American Farm owners pay their laborers more than anywhere else in the world and suffer for it. You are yet to provide a realistic alternative.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


  2. #132
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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    They aren't growing it all over the world, they are growing it here. They need to incorporate reality into their business model.
    Food is grown all over the world. that same food is imported from all over the world. These farmers are not just competing with other american farmers.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


  3. #133
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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    What I said applies to the whole system, including "able bodied" people.
    No it doesnt. Your post does not address mine. You are replying to me as if i stated we should end welfare and let the disabled starve. Which is nowhere what I said. Please reply to my actual post or dont reply to me.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    No it doesnt. Your post does not address mine. You are replying to me as if i stated we should end welfare and let the disabled starve. Which is nowhere what I said. Please reply to my actual post or dont reply to me.
    No, what I said was entirely a critique of the full system and countering your "take the able bodied people off welfare and any that commit a crime should be shot" argument.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, what I said was entirely a critique of the full system and countering your "take the able bodied people off welfare and any that commit a crime should be shot" argument.
    What is wrong with that?
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    What is wrong with that?
    Shooting people you've thrown out on the street, making them destitute and well more likely to commit crimes? I don't know, seems like the ol' Catch-22.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Shooting people you've thrown out on the street, making them destitute and well more likely to commit crimes? I don't know, seems like the ol' Catch-22.
    It's not actually that complicated. While I do advocate ending welfare, I do not advocate enforced labor. You give them the choice of doing for themselves and if they cannot or choose not to, then they have a place to go where their basic needs are provided for. No one forces them to go, if they choose to starve on the street, then I guess we will need to hire people to remove their bodies. Oh well, their choice. You don't actually force them into anything, you give them choices and let them choose. Of course, most people would choose working on a farm or other project to starving to death on the street.

    As to controlling crime, that is not very difficult, it is a binary set really. If you do x then you will receive y, if y is undesirable enough, then you won't do x. Look at total crime statistics (Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster Crime) you'll notice that the countries with the harshest penalties trend towards the bottom while those that are more lenient trend towards the top, it is not really unpredictable or suprising that the US is at the top of that list. Rober A. Heinlein in Starship Troopers pretty much predicted it back in 1959.

    "I do not understand objections to 'cruel and unusual' punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment--and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mechanism?...As for 'unusual,' punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose...Man has no moral instinct. He is not born with moral sense...We acquire moral sense, when we do, through training, experience, and hard sweat of the mind...What is 'moral sense'? It is an elaboration of the instinct to survive. The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations. This truth is mathematically demonstrable, everywhere verifiable; it is the single eternal imperative controlling everthing we do." -- Robert A. Heinlein, excerpted from Starship Troopers.

    Maybe you don't think his theory is right, but I do. So instead of being lenient on these individuals at the cost to society and mankind as a whole, I believe they should be given choices directly related to their survival instincts, if they make the wrong choice, oh well, society and mankind as a whole benefits from not carrying on that individuals traits and allowing them to infect greater numbers of people. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"--Spock from Star Trek II, the Wrath of Kahn. So when you consider if something is humane, is it humane to the individual at the cost of society? Mankind will continue and survive, probably, but all individuals die eventually, society and the future of mankind are the many, it's needs must outweigh the needs of the individual.

  8. #138
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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    As to controlling crime, that is not very difficult, it is a binary set really. If you do x then you will receive y, if y is undesirable enough, then you won't do x. Look at total crime statistics (Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster Crime) you'll notice that the countries with the harshest penalties trend towards the bottom while those that are more lenient trend towards the top, it is not really unpredictable or suprising that the US is at the top of that list. Rober A. Heinlein in Starship Troopers pretty much predicted it back in 1959.
    We jail the highest percentage of our population of all nations. We have stricter and harsher punishment for crime than Europe, including the death penalty. Where's Europe on that list compared to America?

    I also don't think the aggressive, military based, draconian government presented in Starship Troopers is particularly a good way to go. I would rather have my freedom.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #139
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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Shooting people you've thrown out on the street, making them destitute and well more likely to commit crimes? I don't know, seems like the ol' Catch-22.
    These people have the option of working and instead are choosing to prey on hard working innocent people. Cutting off their welfare when they are refusing a job opportunity is not me making them destitute and throwing them on the street. That is their choice.

    It is one thing to be on welfare because you have no choice. But when you have a choice, and work in front of you, and you could do it, and instead you choose to stay at home and be on welfare because its easier I have a problem. There is no reason for that person to get assistance. And if working for that $9.25 doesnt quite feed your family (which it certainly can) but if not I am fine with using welfare to supplement someone who is working and needs a little more help. Or someone who genuinely needs help. But able bodied people turning down work have no business on welfare.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


  10. #140
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    Re: California Farm Labor Shortage 'Worst It's Been, Ever'

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    These people have the option of working and instead are choosing to prey on hard working innocent people. Cutting off their welfare when they are refusing a job opportunity is not me making them destitute and throwing them on the street. That is their choice.

    It is one thing to be on welfare because you have no choice. But when you have a choice, and work in front of you, and you could do it, and instead you choose to stay at home and be on welfare because its easier I have a problem. There is no reason for that person to get assistance. And if working for that $9.25 doesnt quite feed your family (which it certainly can) but if not I am fine with using welfare to supplement someone who is working and needs a little more help. Or someone who genuinely needs help. But able bodied people turning down work have no business on welfare.
    That's fine, but you're going to contribute to a higher crime rate, a unrecoverable loss out of the job pool, and end up spending more money policing and jailing all those people we threw in jail. Particularly if you are going to start calling for death penalty punishments.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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