• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Valedictorian denied high school diploma for saying hell in speech

molten_dragon said:
No she wouldn't. At least not by any rational manager in the world. No manager is going to fire a good employee for a mild slip of the tongue. And (with a few minor exceptions) no clients are going to be offended by the word hell, especially when it was uttered unintentionally.
Click to expand...

That would depend entirely on where you work, who your employer is, who your clients are. Those are not minor exceptions. It's just not good etiquette, especially while delivering a speech in mixed company.
Click to expand...
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I see now - she was trying to punish for the slip-up and denying the diploma was the only thing she could think of.

Hmm

I think when students graduate - by that time - that's the schools relinquishing of punishment-abilities. . . they just should have sucked it up.
Click to expand...

Thats my feeling.
 
molten_dragon said:
No she wouldn't. At least not by any rational manager in the world. No manager is going to fire a good employee for a mild slip of the tongue. And (with a few minor exceptions) no clients are going to be offended by the word hell, especially when it was uttered unintentionally.
Click to expand...

With respect in this particular case it was in fact intentional. That should be clear to all. She specifically said in several of her interviews she did it at the last minute and she ment to say it. I
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I see now - she was trying to punish for the slip-up and denying the diploma was the only thing she could think of.

Hmm

I think when students graduate - by that time - that's the schools relinquishing of punishment-abilities. . . they just should have sucked it up.
Click to expand...

I can see your point, but I really don't think asking for an apology is a punishment. That's my whole point. It's being stubborn and proud IMO. Perhaps the principal is being stubborn and proud too, but if the principal gives in to a student, that really isn't setting a good precedence as far as her status is concerned either. She or he is the principal, who thought it was inappropriate and took the steps he or she felt were correct.
 
molten_dragon said:
I think I'm every bit as informed as you are. Every article I've read says the audience laughed at it. Do you have information indicating otherwise?
Click to expand...

It is clearly indicated in the article that the language was not permitted by the administration.
 
ChrisL said:
I can see your point, but I really don't think asking for an apology is a punishment. That's my whole point. It's being stubborn and proud IMO. Perhaps the principal is being stubborn and proud too, but if the principal gives in to a student, that really isn't setting a good precedence as far as her status is concerned either. She or he is the principal, who thought it was inappropriate and took the steps he or she felt were correct.
Click to expand...

I guess that is why discretion should be excercised. It is used less and less these days. The principle has more experiance then the graduate, one would think they would be wiser in their response to a very minor situation. It can still be salvaged I think but that will depend on the good will of all involved I think. Appogising publicly is an addmision of guilt. That is punishment, via humiliation. She is not guilty of any thing that would require punishment of any sort. Admonishment privately perhaps.
 
Guy Incognito said:
It is clearly indicated in the article that the language was not permitted by the administration.
Click to expand...

If the adminstration wishes to control what is said at the ceramony then have the speaches recorded then they will be able to have no surprises and not allow anything they dont like, or they find questionable.
 
PirateMk1 said:
I guess that is why discretion should be excercised. It is used less and less these days. The principle has more experiance then the graduate, one would think they would be wiser in their response to a very minor situation. It can still be salvaged I think but that will depend on the good will of all involved I think. Appogising publicly is an addmision of guilt. That is punishment, via humiliation. She is not guilty of any thing that would require punishment of any sort. Admonishment privately perhaps.
Click to expand...

Here is a a link. She DID break the rules, and she was well aware of that. It says ZERO tolerance policy.

HS valedictorian denied diploma after saying word

There is zero tolerance and then there is zero tolerance. A high school in Oklahoma with a strict zero tolerance policy against profanity may have overreacted a tad in refusing to grant a diploma to a graduating senior (and not just any graduating senior but the class valedictorian) because she said H-E-double hockey sticks in her graduation speech. The teen, Kaitlin Nootbaar, was on NBC's Today Show on Wednesday, where she told host Matt Laurer that she has no intention of apologizing for her offensive choice of language. “I know what I've achieved,” she said during the interview (video here), “and the fact that I don't want to give an apology, maybe I'll never get my diploma and that's fine.”
 
The article also mentions that she submitted her speech for approval beforehand (and it was approved) with the word "heck" in it, and then at the last minute she decided to change her mind.
 
PirateMk1 said:
If the adminstration wishes to control what is said at the ceramony then have the speaches recorded then they will be able to have no surprises and not allow anything they dont like, or they find questionable.
Click to expand...

No, they can make rules against students using profane language (or anything THEY consider profane language) while in the school setting, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
 
ChrisL said:
Here is a a link. She DID break the rules, and she was well aware of that. It says ZERO tolerance policy.

HS valedictorian denied diploma after saying word

There is zero tolerance and then there is zero tolerance. A high school in Oklahoma with a strict zero tolerance policy against profanity may have overreacted a tad in refusing to grant a diploma to a graduating senior (and not just any graduating senior but the class valedictorian) because she said H-E-double hockey sticks in her graduation speech. The teen, Kaitlin Nootbaar, was on NBC's Today Show on Wednesday, where she told host Matt Laurer that she has no intention of apologizing for her offensive choice of language. “I know what I've achieved,” she said during the interview (video here), “and the fact that I don't want to give an apology, maybe I'll never get my diploma and that's fine.”
Click to expand...

Zero tolerance is a cop out. It trys to save people from having to think for themselves and be held accountable for themselves. That said, they still have discretion and they failed to use it. This is a pick your battles moment. They picked the wrong one.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Zero tolerance is a cop out. It trys to save people from having to think for themselves and be held accountable for themselves. That said, they still have discretion and they failed to use it. This is a pick your battles moment. They picked the wrong one.
Click to expand...

That all depends on how you look at the situation. I see it more as the school cannot back down from their rules because it sets a bad precedence. Can't have the children taking advantage, and if you know anything about children, they do and will.
 
ChrisL said:
No, they can make rules against students using profane language (or anything THEY consider profane language) while in the school setting, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Click to expand...

Then they get surprises. They should expect them. I know I was certainly no angel at that age. I would also point out that after they certified the class as graduated they technically have no control over their former students.(That last is just food for thought.)
 
PirateMk1 said:
Then they get surprises. They should expect them. I know I was certainly no angel at that age. I would also point out that after they certified the class as graduated they technically have no control over their former students.(That last is just food for thought.)
Click to expand...

That may be true, but it is not difficult to apologize. I do it all the time. LOL! :)
 
Guy Incognito said:
It is clearly indicated in the article that the language was not permitted by the administration.
Click to expand...


"Not permitted by the administration" is not the same thing as "The community didn't approve", which is what you originally said. And neither is the same as it actually being against the rules.
 
molten_dragon said:
The articles I've read said it was unintentional.
Click to expand...

Well, the one posted here as the OP link doesn't say at all, but I searched myself and posted a link in which it does say she admitted on the interview with the Today show that she did it intentionally, as a last minute decision, to sort of spice up her speech.
 
ChrisL said:
Here is a a link. She DID break the rules, and she was well aware of that. It says ZERO tolerance policy.
Click to expand...

Ah, I hadn't read that article. That definitely explains the idiocy shown by the principal.
 
molten_dragon said:
"Not permitted by the administration" is not the same thing as "The community didn't approve", which is what you originally said. And neither is the same as it actually being against the rules.
Click to expand...

Apparently, the school has a zero tolerance policy for profanity which would make it against the rules.
 
ChrisL said:
That all depends on how you look at the situation. I see it more as the school cannot back down from their rules because it sets a bad precedence. Can't have the children taking advantage, and if you know anything about children, they do and will.
Click to expand...

Good lord you are sooooo right about children and taking advantage. Precedence should not be a real concern here as the infraction is very small and more importantly very much within context with the speak submited to the facilty. The words heck and hell are very much interchangable and frequently are interchanged. The setting of precedence is negligable at best. This is what I mean about dicression. They did not aynalis the situtation and realise there was nothing to punish in reality. They knee jerked it and got themselves bit and with good reason to boot.
 
ChrisL said:
That may be true, but it is not difficult to apologize. I do it all the time. LOL! :)
Click to expand...

I do too. Sometimes even when its not warented.:shrug: That said this young woman has nothing to be ashamed of and no appoligy should be made by her. Especially now.:2wave:
 
PirateMk1 said:
Good lord you are sooooo right about children and taking advantage. Precedence should not be a real concern here as the infraction is very small and more importantly very much within context with the speak submited to the facilty. The words heck and hell are very much interchangable and frequently are interchanged. The setting of precedence is negligable at best. This is what I mean about dicression. They did not aynalis the situtation and realise there was nothing to punish in reality. They knee jerked it and got themselves bit and with good reason to boot.
Click to expand...

I agree. I don't think hell is a very bad word. I use it all the time myself, but the school (I don't know if this was only the principal's decision) apparently did, and THEY are the ones in charge. Just as if your boss told you that something was against the rules and you did it anyway. That's life.

I want to add that I don't know how the rules would apply to this situation because it was during a graduation ceremony. It still occurred on school property and in front of the community and students, but since she is out of there now, I don't know how much the school can do, so that is not a part of my argument.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Actually I am fairlly fresh out of school. I have my 20 year reunion this year. ;)
Click to expand...

I'd be coming up on my 30th if I cared about such things.
 
ChrisL said:
I agree. I don't think hell is a very bad word. I use it all the time myself, but the school (I don't know if this was only the principal's decision) apparently did, and THEY are the ones in charge. Just as if your boss told you that something was against the rules and you did it anyway. That's life.

I want to add that I don't know how the rules would apply to this situation because it was during a graduation ceremony. It still occurred on school property and in front of the community and students, but since she is out of there now, I don't know how much the school can do, so that is not a part of my argument.
Click to expand...

If they were employees I would agree completly. The thing is they are not employees. They are complused to attend the school. They dont get to say no. That changes things quite abit. Discresion by the school should be employed. Especially given the tenuous nature of their control. If push came to shove and it went to the courts I have a feeling that the school would get hammered hard.
 
PirateMk1 said:
If they were employees I would agree completly. The thing is they are not employees. They are complused to attend the school. They dont get to say no. That changes things quite abit. Discresion by the school should be employed. Especially given the tenuous nature of their control. If push came to shove and it went to the courts I have a feeling that the school would get hammered hard.
Click to expand...

I don't know. You would have to look into other zero tolerance school policies that were fought in the past and see I guess. It's not THAT important to me. :2razz:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom