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Thread: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Let's talk some physics for a moment. The first law of dynamics, simply put, states that energy can neither be created, nor destroyed. Only altered. So, in the case of cars, we are taking energy that is stored in oil, and releasing it. Where did that energy come from? The sun. Think of it as fosselized sunlight. It's sunlight that hit the earth millions and millions of years ago. It was not destroyed, only altered, by plants. Specifically, marine plants. Which died before they could alter it, themselves, in the form of growth, or reproduction, or whatever they were using it for. Once they died, they sank to the bottom of the ocean, and got covered in dirt. Preserved. You see, usually, when a plant dies, it rots, and decomposes, and eventually becomes very energy rich soil. It is altered. But in this case, it was trapped under higher pressure, and mud. For millions of years. It rotted, and became, over that span of time, the oil we now know and love. When we burn it, we release that stored energy, and it gets used, generally for motion of some form or another.

    Now, you take an object, any object. To move said object, it requires energy. If I were to move that object, with, say, my hand, it would require the same amount of energy actually being applied to the object, than, if, say, someone ELSE moved the object, or, if, say, the wind moved said object. Because, the object had not changed weight, or shape, or texture, from one method of movement to another.

    Why all of this? To explain something really quite simple. No matter what we use, be it electricity, oil, natural gas, hydrogen, or wind...a car requires the same amount of energy being applied to it, in order to achieve the same amount of motion. The question is, from where can we derive the most energy, and, of the options, which is the most efficient, and these days, more importantly, which is less harmful to our environment. Where does electricity come from? Why, mostly, from fossil fuels, just like oil. Only, coal does not have NEAR the energy potential that oil has. It has less stored energy. In essence, then, it is less efficient. We can also generate electricity from the wind, and from water, by working in reverse...which is to say, by turning MOTION into electricity, instead of the other way around. But we can only ever generation as much energy this way as those forces can generate motion. In other words, not nearly enough to power all the worlds automobiles, as we currently stand.

    In my mind, trying to make a car that runs on electricity is a step backwards. We already had them in the early 1900s, and ditched them, for the very same reasons they are not too popular now. Think about what electricity is, and what it takes to transport it. What happens when you try to power, say, a drill, with a 5 foot plug, from a wall socket? It runs fine, to tax to the grid at all. Now, whip out a 500 foot extension cord, and try to do the same. Not gonna work out so well for you. This is the inherent problem with it, as an energy source. Oil, on the other hand, does not release it's store of energy without a catalyst, typically, heat. Ideal.

    But what of that other elusive source? Hydrogen?
    I'm not sure what the long introduction has to do with your conclusion that electricity is not a good answer for powering cars. For one thing -- while you are correct that it takes X amount of power to move a car Y distance -- hybrids and electrics have the ability to reclaim some of the wasted energy from braking. For another, direct drive electronic drivetrains are inherently more efficient than oil-based drivetrains which lose a lot of power through the transmission. And ultimately, electric vehicles are the most flexible option as the power source can be updated at any time. Not ready for primetime yet, but getting closer all the time.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Considering all the religious extremists that blow **** up, and the fact that the average human is a ****ing idiot, do you really think that's such a great idea?
    Meh...they could seal it where the components couldnt be accessed. Maybe boobie trap them so if someone tried they would get fried by a short but severe blast of stored capacitance.

    Fact is until we find a viable and sustainable power source that has greater energy potential, we are going to be married to fossil fuels. Making more electricity from fossil fuels to power electric cars looks wonderful when you look solely at the electric car and NOT at what it took to get the electricity to the plug.

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post

    In my mind, trying to make a car that runs on electricity is a step backwards. We already had them in the early 1900s, and ditched them, for the very same reasons they are not too popular now. Think about what electricity is, and what it takes to transport it. What happens when you try to power, say, a drill, with a 5 foot plug, from a wall socket? It runs fine, to tax to the grid at all. Now, whip out a 500 foot extension cord, and try to do the same. Not gonna work out so well for you. This is the inherent problem with it, as an energy source. Oil, on the other hand, does not release it's store of energy without a catalyst, typically, heat. Ideal.

    But what of that other elusive source? Hydrogen?
    If electricity is just a lousy idea, then maybe we shouldn't use it to power our houses, right? I mean, EVERYBODY lives within 500 ft of a electricity-making coal plant, right?

    And I don't see where you're getting your numbers from regarding hybrids that only get 20 mpg and electrics that go only 32 miles. The Chevy Volt gets 40mpg highway (37mpg combined).
    Cost to go 25 miles on electric only: $1.08
    Cost to go 25 miles on gas only: $2.72
    Fuel Economy of the 2012 Chevrolet Volt

    The all-electric Nissan Leaf will get 138 miles under perfect conditions. Under realistic conditions, it will get about 70 miles with the A/C on.
    Nissan Leaf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And given that a HUGE amount of our existing infrastructure is already devoted to moving electricity around, I don't see how electric cars could possibly be a step backward.
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I dont pretend to understand the physics and engineering requirements for an H car, but as I understand it, there is simply no way to make the conversion cost effective, just as converting stations would also be ineffective. But if they could...happy days! Heck...why not downward design a low yield nuclear reactor for the purpose of powering automobiles. Surely the breakthroughs we have made in micro and nano-technology could facilitate such a thing.
    Not "low yield nuclear reactor" but nuclear battery. Voyager 1 and 2 were launched in 1977 and both have nuclear batteries. Although power is deminishing now, they ran for a good long time. We should of, at least I think so, made more progress in the last 35 years on battery design and output. Unfortunately, nuclear is not well understood and people fear it. If you tell them you want to put nuclear material in their cars, they would piss themselves and immediately start yelling it is bad, no matter what the facts really are. They will claim it will cause mutations like three eyed babies and if you actually built it and tried to use it, people would be hiring lawyers and would be suing you because they would claim every case of the common cold was caused by that nuclear battery regardless of how safe it actually is.

    Modern materials could easily make them tamper proof and crash save, but as a usable solution, forget about it, people are just too afraid of anything that says "nuclear".

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I'm not sure what the long introduction has to do with your conclusion that electricity is not a good answer for powering cars. For one thing -- while you are correct that it takes X amount of power to move a car Y distance -- hybrids and electrics have the ability to reclaim some of the wasted energy from braking. For another, direct drive electronic drivetrains are inherently more efficient than oil-based drivetrains which lose a lot of power through the transmission. And ultimately, electric vehicles are the most flexible option as the power source can be updated at any time. Not ready for primetime yet, but getting closer all the time.
    The problem with it, at least for me, is "refueling". Takes a very long time to charge a battery, and when one travels as much as I do, it's just not practical.
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Green cars (actually any cars) that cost $100K have a small market and are a foolish product for our gov't to invest in. The party of the "little guy" investing in toys for the rich and famous, using borrowed money and backed by the taxpayers, is insane. Safety recalls are no big deal, since only experience (over time) can show these types of problems. Like all hybrid technology, it is inefficient in either mode; in the electric mode (about the first 32 miles) it must carry the added dead cargo weight/bulk of the IC engine and the fossil fuel source and in the IC mode (all travel beyond 32 miles, and at only 20mpg) it must carry the added dead weight/bulk of the electric power plant and batteries. Since the basic technology is not new, the mileage is poor and the price is high - just what exactly is so good about these cars?
    Naming a car Karma is just asking for problems.

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    Delorean made awesome cars,but i wont argue on them being too expensive.delorean made the early supercars that were used as a base design for many cars in the 80's.what killed them was the fact they cost 25k in the late seventies,back when a new car was around 5k or less.

    kinda odd though these new electric cars share the same outrageous cost to benefit ratio.
    I must take issue with this because the Renault engine used was crap and will always be crap.

    Of all the engines he could have used he went for Renault.

    Bad mistake.

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    All this drama over better fuel saving/lower emissions cars/technology.


    In the early 90s, Honda had a civic model called the HX. No hybrid, no electric, just good ol gas motor. As I recall, mine got about 40-45mpg on average, and if I was tight that month, and drove carefully, I saw 50mpg, easily. What happened to that? The fact is, the technology exists, and has existed, to achieve better fuel economy, and better emissions. The question is, why wasn't it ever implemented, and when it was, why was it fazed out? Honda stopped making that HX in...95, or 96, I think. When I traded mine in, it had 275K miles on the clock, with NO major work done to the motor.
    Because the ojority of the car buying public do not want an econobox with no air or any other options.

    The Chevy Sprint 3 cylinder was a quick little car that got great gas milage, but it would never take over for a mid size car for somebody that has a family.

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    The problem with it, at least for me, is "refueling". Takes a very long time to charge a battery, and when one travels as much as I do, it's just not practical.
    That is a problem, especially if you live outside of town or travel much. And using pure electric for long distance travel, forget about it. It is practical for a lot of people, but then, those same people would also benefit from a good public trans system. For some of us, we would have to purchase two vehicles, the electric one and one for other uses, not to mention they don't even make an electric pickup. So lets see $35K for a leaf, it's all electric, then you need another vehicle if you actually need to travel more than 100 miles for the day. The Volt at least you get the option of running it on gas after what is it now 130 miles they claim. So maybe you won't need a second vehicle with it if it meets your needs, but with price starting at around $31K, how many average Americans can even afford it.

    But my biggest problems with hybrids and electric cars is Why the hell do they have to make them so damned small? I'm 6'3 around 250lbs and already have pain and joint issues, no way am I folding myself into one of those little boxes at any price.

    Now we have our government, blame Obama or whoever, that invest all this money into a company that is making a luxury sports car. Why aren't they investing that money in someone trying to build hybrid/electric pickups, SUVs and delivery trucks instead? Take a look around you when you drive, how many Trucks, SUVs and delivery trucks to you see vs how many luxury sports cars. Giver farmers affordable and usable hybrid/electric pickups and tractors and that would greatly reduce their fuel cost, thus reducing food costs.

    And this whole stupid idea of High Speed passenger rail. Screw that for now. We need high speed, electric powered cargo rail first. We burn a lot more fuel moving cargo than people, concentrate on that first.

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    EV refueling is definitely an issue, but there are several approaches, one of which I'm sure will prove satisfactory. Rapid charging technology is one option that could solve problems for commuters, but probably not for long distance drivers. Another possibility is battery electrolyte replacement, which would work similar to fueling a car.

    As for hybrids being small -- they aren't all small. My wife drives a Highlander Hybrid which seats seven. It's mechanically identical to the Lexus hybrid SUV. Dodge also makes a Durango hybrid. And if you have some bucks lying around, you can buy a Porsche Cayenne hybrid. Also the Ford Escape hybrid ... among others.
    Last edited by AdamT; 08-22-12 at 04:02 PM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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