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Thread: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

  1. #131
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I have no idea.
    I would say yes, just because the turbine engine itself is more mechanically efficient, but they're far more expensive to buy, fuel, and maintain.
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    I would say yes, just because the turbine engine itself is more mechanically efficient, but they're far more expensive to buy, fuel, and maintain.
    You also have to consider size. I've seen the turbine in the old early-60s Chrysler car. It's not very big, smaller than a modern V-6, IIRC, and noisy! A turbine to run a generator wouldn't need to be even that big.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You also have to consider size. I've seen the turbine in the old early-60s Chrysler car. It's not very big, smaller than a modern V-6, IIRC, and noisy! A turbine to run a generator wouldn't need to be even that big.
    That too. The only things with turbines I've been around were helos and tanks. Huge engines, high decibels, lots of fuel. The work done to those things has to be extensive too. Turbine engines, as great as they are, are pretty damn fragile in comparison to other engine/motor types.

    I'm a huge proponent of synthetic diesel. Even though it's not as efficient as electric, it's familiar, it's simple, it has already established itself and been proven to work, the car/truck doesn't have to change much at all, if at all, and we don't have to change every fuel station in the US. The car can be changed as many times as we want, but without support from fuel stations, knowledgeable mechanics and technicians, and the abilities of the manufacturers themselves, that vehicle isn't going far.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I'm not sure what the long introduction has to do with your conclusion that electricity is not a good answer for powering cars. For one thing -- while you are correct that it takes X amount of power to move a car Y distance -- hybrids and electrics have the ability to reclaim some of the wasted energy from braking. For another, direct drive electronic drivetrains are inherently more efficient than oil-based drivetrains which lose a lot of power through the transmission. And ultimately, electric vehicles are the most flexible option as the power source can be updated at any time. Not ready for primetime yet, but getting closer all the time.
    Eh....I ramble a lot. I...basically have no explanation for my long as intro, lol. They have the ability to reclaim some of the energy RELEASED by breaking, no wasted. Stopping, in my opinion, is not a waste of energy. And the energy they are reclaiming is just enough to run the radio for about 5 minutes...unless you are racing around an autocross track, and like to break late into the turns. Which I don't advise, for a hybrid, because they tend towards the heavy.

    Direct drive loses less power due to no traditional drive train, true, but they then lose that gain due to their weight. Also, petrol drive trains have gotten loads better, and are getting better all the time. Consider...the Borg Warner Super T-10 4 speed in my vette...I have about 370hp at the motor, and 420 torque. On a rolling dyno, though, I'd be lucky to see 300 of that the wheels, and 365 torque. Now look at the brand new Z06. 505 hp on the motor, and dynos, consistently, at 480 to the wheels. That's a HUGE improvement, and it happened, really, over the span on only TWO transmission design lifetimes. As for flexibility, yeah, sure. But that, too, comes at a high costs. Efficiency. Again, grab yourself a drill, plug it into the wall, and run it. Now, put a 500 foot extension cord in the middle, and run it. Watch as your lights go dim. Now multiply that by 10,000, and you'll have an idea of how much electricity is "wasted" just to get it to you, to power your car. Not saying electricity is not the answer...but, before we step up the demand for it, we need to work on the delivery system. We need to better understand electricity, first. And we need better ways of producing it. Else, we are simply trading the devil we know for the one we don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  5. #135
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    If electricity is just a lousy idea, then maybe we shouldn't use it to power our houses, right? I mean, EVERYBODY lives within 500 ft of a electricity-making coal plant, right?

    And I don't see where you're getting your numbers from regarding hybrids that only get 20 mpg and electrics that go only 32 miles. The Chevy Volt gets 40mpg highway (37mpg combined).
    Cost to go 25 miles on electric only: $1.08
    Cost to go 25 miles on gas only: $2.72
    Fuel Economy of the 2012 Chevrolet Volt

    The all-electric Nissan Leaf will get 138 miles under perfect conditions. Under realistic conditions, it will get about 70 miles with the A/C on.
    Nissan Leaf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And given that a HUGE amount of our existing infrastructure is already devoted to moving electricity around, I don't see how electric cars could possibly be a step backward.
    You must be confusing me with someone else...I have not once stated fuel economy figures for hybrid or electric cars. Because I am a car person. I know that all those numbers are bogus. The most important thing to consider with fuel economy is driving style. Someone in a V8 corvette can easily get better fuel economy by just driving like a sane individual than someone in a hybrid, who drives like the typical soccer mom, who views every stop sign and light as a chance to drag race...to the next stop sign or light. And to be honest, the Chevy Volt 40mpg number is pretty sad. Again, 14 years ago, I drove a car built by honda that could do 48mpg, easily, and see me into the 50s if I was careful. 14 years ago. In a regular old, gas burning car. I'm not so much denouncing hyrbid or electric technology as I am wondering where the intermediary went? Why not make more fuel efficient gas burners, whilst we WORK on ironing out the kinks, and getting the costs down, on the new tech? Surely THAT would help our carbon footprint, eh?

    I don't think we all need to live 500 feet from a power plant. I think we use a LOT less energy to run our houses (most of us....looking at YOU, Al Gore) than we do to operate our automobiles. I have an oil burning furnace with forced air heat. It's a 275 gallon tank, and in the 3 years I have owned this house, I have had it filled 3 times. My electric bill is also quite low, despite electricity being VERY expensive in CT. I can't really calculate how much gas me and the wife use in our cars...and we would use a LOT less than the average person, as we both live within 5 miles of our jobs, daycare, grocery store, etc. But I can tell you, we burn more gas than we do oil in the house.

    Now, take the current demand for electricity in the US, and triple it. 60%, or something close to it, of all oil in the US is used for our cars. Try to convert that amount of energy into electricity. Don't you see the problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  6. #136
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I must take issue with this because the Renault engine used was crap and will always be crap.

    Of all the engines he could have used he went for Renault.

    Bad mistake.
    Some were made with Ford Windsors. 351s.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  7. #137
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    Because the ojority of the car buying public do not want an econobox with no air or any other options.

    The Chevy Sprint 3 cylinder was a quick little car that got great gas milage, but it would never take over for a mid size car for somebody that has a family.
    Mine had AC? I bought it used, however...did they not come from the factory with AC?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  8. #138
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Fossil fuels provide less than half of the electrical power in America and that percentage is getting smaller every day.

    ICE engines waste a huge amount of energy, mostly as heat, even before the transmissions/gears are factored in. The transmission and other gearing loses another 22-24% for automatics, 16-20% for manuals transmissions. Electric motors are the most efficient motors in the world and few electric cars use a transmission for the electric motor. The electric components of electric cars are extremely efficient as far as how much work is being done compared to the energy put into the system.

    Electricity is a step forward. Even now we talk about changing fuels but something as simple as switching to NG/LNG will take a huge amount of investment because the entire infrastructure for automotive fuels is built around gasoline/Diesel. To switch to NG/LNG every gas station in America would need new storage tanks. The existing NG pipelines couldn't handle the increased capacity we'd need. Unlike electricity that can be generated locally from wind/solar and stored, NG is only available in some very exclusive places in the country and needs to be transported - and transported - and transported until it finally gets somewhere that can put it into your car's tank. Or we can replace the millions of miles of NG pipelines in country, which is even more expensive. Then 50-80 years from now, if we switch fuels again, we get to do it all over - re-building the entire fuel distribution infrastructure to meet the new fuel's needs.

    Better to switch to electricity now and upgrade the grid as needed (local generation will reduce that need) to be ready for whatever fuel we decide to use in the future. Whatever it is can be used much more efficiently at a fixed, large-scale facility than it can ever be used in a small, mobile application like a car.

    Even if we get hydrogen to work it'll still be more efficient to burn it at a fixed, large-scale facility than it will be to burn in a car or truck - and much safer, too.
    I actually agree with about....99% of this post. That 1% about drive train loss on internal combustion motors, though, is wrong. Drive train loss for a good manual is now down to about 10%, and on SOME autos, is as low as 16%, though most still sit at 20% or so.


    What about finding a way to make car charge stations stand alone electricity generators?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  9. #139
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Mine had AC? I bought it used, however...did they not come from the factory with AC?
    Most likely a rare option

    They were called econo boxes not just because of good fuel economy, but because they were cheap to buy. America is generally the last place that accepts that smaller cars can be expensive and luxurious as well as providing good fuel economy
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  10. #140
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    As for flexibility, yeah, sure. But that, too, comes at a high costs. Efficiency. Again, grab yourself a drill, plug it into the wall, and run it. Now, put a 500 foot extension cord in the middle, and run it. Watch as your lights go dim. Now multiply that by 10,000, and you'll have an idea of how much electricity is "wasted" just to get it to you, to power your car. Not saying electricity is not the answer...but, before we step up the demand for it, we need to work on the delivery system. We need to better understand electricity, first. And we need better ways of producing it. Else, we are simply trading the devil we know for the one we don't.
    Transmission losses on the power grid are about 7%.

    We've been producing and distributing electrical power longer then there have been Ford's on the road so I'm not sure what you mean by understanding it better.


    I'm have no idea what else you might be trying to say here.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-23-12 at 11:40 PM.
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