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Thread: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    The Chevy Volt. What a useless car that is.

    It's base price is roughly double what a fully loaded Chevy Cruze is...yet it is smaller inside, has a smaller trunk and seats 20% less people.

    And this was the car that was supposed to save GM?

    The only people that buy Volt's are either green fanatics or automotive ignoramuses.
    By comparison, Carl Benz's first automobile was useless and waste of time also or Henry Ford's Model A and Model T. So was the Wright Brothers first Airplane or Goddards first chemical rocket. How useful is an X8088 Intel processor today?

    Is it more expensive than a Cruze? Sure, but one is old technology based on over a 150 years of developement (first gas internal combustion engine built by Belgian Jean Joseph Etienne Lenoir in 1860, first actual internal combustion engine was in the 1600s, gunpowder fueled and was used to drive water pumps so the Cruze could be considered an end product of around 400 years of development) and the other is a technology that is just now being developed for the market. While certain types of hybrids do go back to the late 1800s, the current focus on hybrid use is only recent probably due to the relatively low cost of gasoline and gasoline powered cars for over a century (and most likely to a lot, and I mean a lot, of lobbing dollars). Before, there simply wasn't enough motivation to put money into developement. Like any "new" technology going to market, it is initially going to cost consumers more. As development continues, a greater variety of choices will become available and prices will go down once companies recoup research and development costs.

    What is really more interesting to me though is that the government had hybrid HUMVEEs as early as 1985, where the hell is our usable hybrid pickups and SUVs after 27 years of development? The government already covered the R&D costs on that. So GM and others, fess them up!!!

    (God forgive me for saying this) Be thankful for those green fanatics and automotive ignoramuses, because they are going to pay for the development of the future of automobiles.

    As to seating 20% less, how many people do you commute with? In the early 1980s, GM and Toyata starting building the Pontiac Fiero and the MRII as a base commuter car. (Ok, so GM did their usual 1980s number and tried to cut costs and basically destroyed one of the best ideas and base designs for an easy to use, park and fuel efficient daily commuter they ever had, but hey, they tried.) Why did they do it? Because they found that most commuters only had one or two people commuting and so they made it a two seater. My 1985 and 1986 ones, both converted to manual 5 speeds, got around 38 mpg until I added a MSD 2A multispark unit and capacitance discharge coil, then they got up to 42 MPG. Now consider that they were a pushrod, rotary distributer, all iron motor with a single draft Throttle Body Injection system, and that is really damned good. The Cruze uses a slightly smaller, alluminum alloy, 32 valve twin overhead cam, timed sequential multiport fuel injection, distributerless ignition (with a coil for each sparkplug and no plug wires motor) motor (less weight, reduction of rotating mass and a lot less resistance for spark) and the best model of it can only match what I got from that 1985 car with a $150 upgrade and I still had a somewhat reliable daily driver for commuting. My 2010 HHR with the 2.2L and 5 speed manual only gets around 29-30 (supposed to get 32, but ethanol gas screws up gas milleage.) So personally, I am saying screw the newer cars, I am going back to the old ones (I can get a crate motor for them for under $5000 and still get a 5 year/100,000 mile warrenty on the motor) and if they ever get the hybrids bigger, affordable and reliable, then I might consider them.
    Last edited by DVSentinel; 08-23-12 at 01:09 AM.

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    ...And people who don't support middle-east terrorists. And people who don't like the idea of the US being economically raped by middle-east sheiks without the aid of lubricant. There are plenty of America-haters out there who'd like to see the US get a bad deal, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised when some oppose the US establishing energy independence.

    20% less people makes it useless? So it seats 4 people instead of 5. In trade for that one person, people who own a Volt and travel less than 32 miles a day (which represents a large percent of people), don't need to buy gas for their daily commutes, EVER! A great way to flip the bird at OPEC and their al-Queda friends. Does this mean that ANY 2-seater is "worse than useless?"
    The Mazda Miata is a two seater and it was a total hit. The RX-8 is a two seater, and they sell plenty of 'em. Same for the BMW Z4 and the Corvette.

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    No one in America is in the market for a $40-50K car?
    That is not what I said and you know it.

    The Volt will probably not sell even 20,000 units in 2012.

    I will let others decide if Americans have a demand for it.

    What does it come out to per person? A couple of pennies? Gimmie a break!
    That line explains all I need to know about you as far as this conversation is concerned.


    And btw:

    'Typical buyer of subsidized Chevy Volt earns $170,000 per year'

    Typical buyer of subsidized Chevy Volt earns $170,000 per year | timesfreepress.com


    So you apparently think taking money from lower/middle class Americans to give to upper class/rich Americans so they can buy more Chevy Volts is a good idea?

    Noted.


    I am done talking to you about this for now...life is WAY too short.

    You love the car so much? Great...go and buy one.


    Have a nice day.

  4. #114
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Developing new technologies is the only hope this country has of making a comeback. We led the computer revolution and we very badly need another one.

    Whether is electric cars or robots or whatever, this is the one place I don't mind government spending at all. Some projects are very difficult. So wether it's a rover on mars or a great electric car, we better start leading again or we'll soon be following.

    I can think of many other areas that don't deserve what the government "invests" in.

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    That is not what I said and you know it.

    The Volt will probably not sell even 20,000 units in 2012.

    I will let others decide if Americans have a demand for it.



    That line explains all I need to know about you as far as this conversation is concerned.


    And btw:

    'Typical buyer of subsidized Chevy Volt earns $170,000 per year'

    Typical buyer of subsidized Chevy Volt earns $170,000 per year | timesfreepress.com


    So you apparently think taking money from lower/middle class Americans to give to upper class/rich Americans so they can buy more Chevy Volts is a good idea?

    Noted.


    I am done talking to you about this for now...life is WAY too short.

    You love the car so much? Great...go and buy one.


    Have a nice day.
    Did I say that the sole reason it is useless is because it seats 4 instead of 5?

    No.

    But you decided to make it try and sound like I did.

    I think I know all about your character from that one post.


    And no, what makes the Volt 'useless' is it's base price of almost $40,000 for a car that is being sold on it's gas mileage (among other things).

    And considering they probably won't even sell 20,000 in 2012 - even with massive government price breaks - looks like most Americans agree....it's useless unless you are a green fanatic or an automotive ignoramus...or a combination thereof.

    You disagree?

    Then I guess we know that you are probably one of the above.


    Have a nice day.
    LOL! Instead of a Volt, go buy yourself some unhurt feelings.

  6. #116
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    That is not what I said and you know it.

    The Volt will probably not sell even 20,000 units in 2012.

    I will let others decide if Americans have a demand for it.



    That line explains all I need to know about you as far as this conversation is concerned.


    And btw:

    'Typical buyer of subsidized Chevy Volt earns $170,000 per year'

    Typical buyer of subsidized Chevy Volt earns $170,000 per year | timesfreepress.com


    So you apparently think taking money from lower/middle class Americans to give to upper class/rich Americans so they can buy more Chevy Volts is a good idea?

    Noted.


    I am done talking to you about this for now...life is WAY too short.

    You love the car so much? Great...go and buy one.


    Have a nice day.
    Investing in new technology, sure. Investing is a luxury sports car like Fisker, not so much.

    But what has investing in technology gotten us in the past? Who was the first to use airplanes? The military and the postal service with a few rich thrill seekers thrown in. RADAR was developed for the military, but look at all the uses it has today in the civilian world (one you may not know of is the Microwave oven, the first ones were developed off the Klystron Tube originally designed for RADAR systems). Who paid for the development of the internet (not the WWW that everyone thinks of as the internet but the real internet, the TCP/IP connections that is the base for it all), yep, the government. Your cell phone, yep, again the government, the technology that allows them to work is based off of a usage scheme developed for the Joint Tactical Information Distribution System as part of the AEGIS package for the navy.

    So lets see, so far the government has developed and funded a lot of things and technology, so who were always the first to have access to them and purchase them? The automobile, darn, those pesky rich guys. How about using passenger airplanes, darn, those pesky rich people again. Microwave ovens, TVs, Radios, cell phones, HD TVs, CDs, VCRs, PCs, etc, etc. Always the people who could afford them, not the average person and yes, the government funded a lot of the technologies that made them possible. So, "taking money from the lower/middle class Americans to give to upper class/rich Americans" has been going on for a longtime now, maybe just not as openly as the case of the Volt. I can't say for sure, but for an introductory piece of technology, the Volt is actually quite affordable to more Americans that almost any other tech that has been released, at least in my lifetime. How much was the first Blue-Ray players compared to basic DVD players? Average new car price in the US for 2012? According to Forbes, $30,303. The cost of a volt? Starts at $31,465. Wow, new tech that close to industry average price, probably unheard of in any industry.

    I doubt there is a single person who knows all of the things that the government paid to develope with tax payer money that later was marketed to the public and the wealthier people were almost always the first to pay for it, not the average person. Do I dislike Obama, sure do. Do I dislike his energy policy and spending policies over the last four years, absolutely, but supporting the Volt is not one of the things that I would criticize him for.

    The curtailing or hindering the advancement of mankind is the greatest evil that a person or society can commit.

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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    By comparison, Carl Benz's first automobile was useless and waste of time also or Henry Ford's Model A and Model T. So was the Wright Brothers first Airplane or Goddards first chemical rocket. How useful is an X8088 Intel processor today?

    Is it more expensive than a Cruze? Sure, but one is old technology based on over a 150 years of developement (first gas internal combustion engine built by Belgian Jean Joseph Etienne Lenoir in 1860, first actual internal combustion engine was in the 1600s, gunpowder fueled and was used to drive water pumps so the Cruze could be considered an end product of around 400 years of development) and the other is a technology that is just now being developed for the market. While certain types of hybrids do go back to the late 1800s, the current focus on hybrid use is only recent probably due to the relatively low cost of gasoline and gasoline powered cars for over a century (and most likely to a lot, and I mean a lot, of lobbing dollars). Before, there simply wasn't enough motivation to put money into developement. Like any "new" technology going to market, it is initially going to cost consumers more. As development continues, a greater variety of choices will become available and prices will go down once companies recoup research and development costs.

    What is really more interesting to me though is that the government had hybrid HUMVEEs as early as 1985, where the hell is our usable hybrid pickups and SUVs after 27 years of development? The government already covered the R&D costs on that. So GM and others, fess them up!!!

    (God forgive me for saying this) Be thankful for those green fanatics and automotive ignoramuses, because they are going to pay for the development of the future of automobiles.

    As to seating 20% less, how many people do you commute with? In the early 1980s, GM and Toyata starting building the Pontiac Fiero and the MRII as a base commuter car. (Ok, so GM did their usual 1980s number and tried to cut costs and basically destroyed one of the best ideas and base designs for an easy to use, park and fuel efficient daily commuter they ever had, but hey, they tried.) Why did they do it? Because they found that most commuters only had one or two people commuting and so they made it a two seater. My 1985 and 1986 ones, both converted to manual 5 speeds, got around 38 mpg until I added a MSD 2A multispark unit and capacitance discharge coil, then they got up to 42 MPG. Now consider that they were a pushrod, rotary distributer, all iron motor with a single draft Throttle Body Injection system, and that is really damned good. The Cruze uses a slightly smaller, alluminum alloy, 32 valve twin overhead cam, timed sequential multiport fuel injection, distributerless ignition (with a coil for each sparkplug and no plug wires motor) motor (less weight, reduction of rotating mass and a lot less resistance for spark) and the best model of it can only match what I got from that 1985 car with a $150 upgrade and I still had a somewhat reliable daily driver for commuting. My 2010 HHR with the 2.2L and 5 speed manual only gets around 29-30 (supposed to get 32, but ethanol gas screws up gas milleage.) So personally, I am saying screw the newer cars, I am going back to the old ones (I can get a crate motor for them for under $5000 and still get a 5 year/100,000 mile warrenty on the motor) and if they ever get the hybrids bigger, affordable and reliable, then I might consider them.
    Yeah, yeah...we all get it.

    This is a wonderful technology that must be developed and we as Americans should support this foray into the future of automotive powertrains...blah blah blah.

    I do not give a rodents buttocks how cool the tech in this car is (in so far as this discussion is concerned).

    I only care that a) it costs 40K and is selling like snow cones in the Antarctic; b) is another dumbass hybrid that I do not believe is remotely the future of U.S. automotive technology; and c) taxpayers are being forced to subsidize this overpriced experiment so that people who make $170K a year can buy it more easily.

    A $24K Prius I get. I hate ALL hybrids in cars, but I get it. A 24K Volt I might get (as in understand the attraction). But at 40K with government subsidies? A waste of metal and plastic and glass....


    I am done with you on this subject for now.


    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by DA60; 08-23-12 at 05:31 AM.

  8. #118
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post

    I only care that a) it costs 40K and is selling like snow cones in the Antarctic; b) is another dumbass hybrid that I do not believe is remotely the future of U.S. automotive technology;
    That's not what I'm seeing...

    Through the first half of this year, sales of the extended-range sedan have already surpassed all sales in 2011.

    According to the Detroit-based automaker, Volt sales through June were at 8,817 units, up 221.2 percent compared to the same time period last year and up nearly 1,200 units sold from all of 2011. GM sold 7,671 Volts in 2011
    GM: Chevrolet Volt sales in 2012 already surpass last year; on track to sell nearly 18,000 | MLive.com

    In Europe, the Volt is sold as the Ampera, and it's doing extremely well.
    In April, right-hand drive versions for the UK were introduced and this month, sales begin in Poland, Hungary, Turkey, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Romania and Slovakia.

    Opel noted particular examples of regional market dominance, especially in the Netherlands where public sentiment – and government incentives – favor this class of car so much so that Rux said the Ampera even dominated hybrid sales.

    “In the Netherlands, we were able to sell not only more Amperas than every other EV, but also more than every hybrid competitor,” he said.

    In all, the Ampera took more than 77 percent of the passenger EV market share in May. In a statement, Opel noted this made the Ampera “the undisputed leader of its segment by a wide margin with all the other competitors only managing single figure percentages.”

    Further, Opel noted, the average year to date market share for the Ampera in the Netherlands was more than 50 percent, “underscoring its continuing popularity there.”

    “We are proud that we are the number one in Europe. Our sales data and customer feedback confirms that we are definitely on the right track with the Ampera”, said Enno Fuchs, Opel’s e-mobility launch director in the statement.
    Opel Ampera dominates European EV sales in May
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    That's not what I'm seeing...


    GM: Chevrolet Volt sales in 2012 already surpass last year; on track to sell nearly 18,000 | MLive.com

    In Europe, the Volt is sold as the Ampera, and it's doing extremely well.

    Opel Ampera dominates European EV sales in May
    Ummm...what part of 'Fine - now if you will excuse me, this pointless debate lost interest for me about 3 posts back, no offense.' did you not get?

    Have a nice day.

  10. #120
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    Re: Automaker Fisker recalls some 2,400 Karmas for cooling fan issue

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Again, instead of billions to winners/losers, billions to fleets. As more and more of these cars get on the road, the fuel will be there (in the case of natural gas, as an example); the parking spaces with rechargers will be allocated. They can't do it fast enough, in my opinion.

    I rather think the American public could get behind a program like that. We know we're held hostage by the Middle East. Nobody likes it.
    There used to be tax breaks for people that converted to some types of cars, and not just electric hybrids, IIRC. I don't know if those tax breaks are still in place.
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