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Thread: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Yes, I am more than aware. It is also an incredibly leap to jump from the overthrow of Mossadegh to ascribing total US culpability for the actions and incarnation of Iran today. We are not a parent responsible for our forlorn child. We made mistakes, and we have some guilt in the water with regard to our relationship with them. But pushing it further than that obviates Iran's own independence as an actor which I think is silly.
    You endorse imperialism why try and rationaize it by talking about democracy. Although you seem to admit operation ajax was a bad idea you say we should intervene in Iran becasue they aren't doing what we want. The exact same reasoning for Operation Ajax.


    Imperialism, as defined by the Dictionary of Human Geography, is "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination."

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    You endorse imperialism why try and rationaize it by talking about democracy. Although you seem to admit operation ajax was a bad idea you say we should intervene in Iran becasue they aren't doing what we want. The exact same reasoning for Operation Ajax.
    I endorse imperialism? I don't remember saying that. It isn't Imperialism to prevent a country to acquire nuclear weapons. If I invaded Iran, set up a provincial governor, and ruled them as an extended colonial fief, yeah I'd be an Imperialist. What I'm saying is Iran should not acquire nuclear weapons, and the US should support the opposition in Iran and aspire to overthrow the ruling religious junta and establish true democratic rule. Agitating for liberalism and democracy promotion is positive. If you want to call that Democratic Imperialism, I'm fine with that.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I endorse imperialism? I don't remember saying that. It isn't Imperialism to prevent a country to acquire nuclear weapons. If I invaded Iran, set up a provincial governor, and ruled them as an extended colonial fief, yeah I'd be an Imperialist. What I'm saying is Iran should not acquire nuclear weapons, and the US should support the opposition in Iran and aspire to overthrow the ruling religious junta and establish true democratic rule. Agitating for liberalism and democracy promotion is positive. If you want to call that Democratic Imperialism, I'm fine with that.
    Of course Iran is most likely to elect a more moderate theocracy. The younger generation is ok with an islamic state, just a far more moderate one.

    How long do we have to pay for mistakes made during the Cold War?

    When are we going to stop doing the same crap?
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I endorse imperialism? I don't remember saying that. It isn't Imperialism to prevent a country to acquire nuclear weapons. If I invaded Iran, set up a provincial governor, and ruled them as an extended colonial fief, yeah I'd be an Imperialist. What I'm saying is Iran should not acquire nuclear weapons, and the US should support the opposition in Iran and aspire to overthrow the ruling religious junta and establish true democratic rule. Agitating for liberalism and democracy promotion is positive. If you want to call that Democratic Imperialism, I'm fine with that.
    what gives us the right to have a nuclear weapons stockpile while insisting iran can't do the same?
    ditto for israel
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Of course Iran is most likely to elect a more moderate theocracy. The younger generation is ok with an islamic state, just a far more moderate one.

    How long do we have to pay for mistakes made during the Cold War?

    When are we going to stop doing the same crap?
    That isn't true in the slightest. The current generation has been bleeding in the streets to oppose the regime, and came out in their millions to contest the last election before being beaten down by the government. I don't have a problem with Islamic political parties, and I fully and sincerely support Muhammed Morsi in his efforts to reform Egypt, so long as he remains faithful to the democratic roots which lifted him to power. But once democracy is obviated, there is no real legitimacy.

    When are we going to stop agitating for democracy? When the last autocracy is cast down, and we have a new world order of democratic states. A goal that we have been accelerating towards for almost a century, and may be in reach within the next one.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    what gives us the right to have a nuclear weapons stockpile while insisting iran can't do the same?
    ditto for israel
    What gives us the right? I don't understand that question. I support our retention of nuclear weapons because I believe the United States is an important actor for moral good in the world, and it is required for our defense. I'd prefer it if we could abolish nuclear weapons and take advantage of our conventional superiority, but that is a digression. Why is it fair? It isn't fair, why on earth would I care if its fair? This isn't some toy that the teacher says we all have to share. I don't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon because I think they have a terrible government, aggressive regional ambitions inimical to sound interests, and will cause instability in an important region with the potential for aftershocks elsewhere. This is an outcome I want the United States government to prevent.
    ?

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    That isn't true in the slightest. The current generation has been bleeding in the streets to oppose the regime, and came out in their millions to contest the last election before being beaten down by the government. I don't have a problem with Islamic political parties, and I fully and sincerely support Muhammed Morsi in his efforts to reform Egypt, so long as he remains faithful to the democratic roots which lifted him to power. But once democracy is obviated, there is no real legitimacy.

    When are we going to stop agitating for democracy? When the last autocracy is cast down, and we have a new world order of democratic states. A goal that we have been accelerating towards for almost a century, and may be in reach within the next one.
    Sorry, i simply dont believe in the benevolent America bringing justice and democracy to the world.

    We impose our will as we see fit, and if we're better of with you living under a horrible despot, then thats what you get. And if theres nothing in it for us you dont even enter our radar.

    I dont think we're evil, just completely self serving. I would be less annoyed if we just admitted it instead of pretending we want genuine democracy everywhere in the world
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Sorry, i simply dont believe in the benevolent America bringing justice and democracy to the world.

    We impose our will as we see fit, and if we're better of with you living under a horrible despot, then thats what you get. And if theres nothing in it for us you dont even enter our radar.

    I dont think we're evil, just completely self serving. I would be less annoyed if we just admitted it instead of pretending we want genuine democracy everywhere in the world
    America is the only democratic power who has the means, opening, and ability to do so. We have been the only power that has done so, and continues to do so. We have made deals on a utilitarian basis sure enough, but we have shorn our own interests in favor of the democratic option many times before. It is something we should do more of in the future a la Egypt where many neoconservatives argued vigorously to support the overthrow of Mubarak, despite his utility to the US. It is betting on the long term interests of the United States in democracy, rather than short term regional gain. Depending of course on geopolitical circumstance and context, the Cold War being an excellent example.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I endorse imperialism? I don't remember saying that. It isn't Imperialism to prevent a country to acquire nuclear weapons. If I invaded Iran, set up a provincial governor, and ruled them as an extended colonial fief, yeah I'd be an Imperialist. What I'm saying is Iran should not acquire nuclear weapons, and the US should support the opposition in Iran and aspire to overthrow the ruling religious junta and establish true democratic rule. Agitating for liberalism and democracy promotion is positive. If you want to call that Democratic Imperialism, I'm fine with that.
    No! This is what you said

    But I like America being able to intervene and excercise influence in countries and regions like this, hence why I do not want Iran to acquire a nuclear weapon

    You want influence over other countries therefore they can't have a nuke. Imperialism

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    No! This is what you said




    You want influence over other countries therefore they can't have a nuke. Imperialism
    Yes, for the reasons listed above. Influence and Intervention are not equal to Imperialism.

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