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Thread: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    Hamas and Hezbollah aren't destablizing the middle east. I don't see how anyone can even suggest such a thing. They may destablize Israel but believe it or not the middle east consists of more than Israel. If you think Hamas and Hezbollah are engaged in throwing over or propping up more regimes than the U.S. I don't know what to say other than you have an interesting view of the facts.
    You cant see how someone could suggest such a thing? Then you aren't even trying to look. Hezbollah has become the focal point of Iranian power in the Levant which in turn has virtually destroyed the power of the civil government in Lebanon. The proxy battles over the Levant is a direct exportation of the Gulf-Iran conflict to the region. It has a metastasizing influence across the region by heightening the proxy power struggle, which inflames concerns for stability.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    Yes. What's your point?
    You claimed that Iran has never been involved in a proxy war. I proved that you're wrong. It was the Iranian supported Hezbollah that killed Americans in the Khobar Towers bombing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    No! I think Hamas and Hezbollah grievances are over land not Iranian interests. They aren't making war against us nor are they the ones destablizing other countries. This notion that our interests are Israel's interest is not something I buy. I would prefer we do what we can to prevent conflict but Iran conquering Israel or Israel conquering Iran are equal outcomes in my opinion. There are pluses and minuses either way as long as American's aren't killing people or being killed for the interest of other parties.
    You think Hezbollah maintains a 10,000+ strong paramilitary army, with accompanying internal security forces, missile detachments, and political attaches over a few acres of farmland call Shebaa? That is ridiculous. They exist and continue to exist because they desire to eventually claim majority power in Lebanon, and transition from a state within a state, to becoming the state itself. Aligned with a friendly government in Syria, and a friendly government in Tehran there then will be a comfortable base to secure their power base and assist in contesting other areas such as among the Shia of Saudi Arabia, the Houthi of Yemen, the Shia base of Iraq, etc. Not to mention extending their existing defacto alliance with Palestinian militias to continue to harry the Israeli frontier with an eye to destabilizing their neighbor whenever possible. The political horizon is rather large.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The tactics haven't changed for thousands of years and all the technology in the world can't change the fundementals of soldiering. Soldiering, now, is just as tough as it was 2,000 years ago; that aspect of warfare will never change.
    Soldiering is soldiering in any age , that is a non-issue. I believe that technology makes for a more efficient force where casualties can be cut down due to information gathered by the various tools at the disposal of today's soldiers. Less chance based on antiquated methods of intelligence gathering which could mean a higher success rate for mission efficiency.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    I also want to add that I have no idea why some people keep conjuring up Russia and China without defining in the slightest what that means. It is impossible to imagine Russian or Chinese military intervention, almost as hard to imagine as to why they'd even want to especially from China's perspective. Will it amount to supplying arms? Despite enormous political and logistical obstacles to doing so, including the lack of any discernible benefit that could be gained. Arming Iran in the midst of an already commenced war, would be tantamount to Russia having flown S-300 batteries to Baghdad in 2003, it's insane. It will never happen. These are both countries that have clamped down on Iranian arms sales, not accelerated them. Suddenly we are supposed to believe that while Iran's ship is sinking they will upend the entire global political framework by making themselves open opponents of the US and arming Iran even though the cause is futile? Nonsense! Russian and Chinese opposition will be diplomatic, with perhaps very minor assistance such as allowing officials to seek asylum of needed, slipping some hard cash into Iranian bank accounts as the fighting draws to a close, and if insurgents take advantage of government weakness or protesters for that matter, giving similar assistance as what is occurring in Syria. But even that is a stretch.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Of course they have engaged in numerous proxy wars. The laundry list extends from their material support of Hamas, their infiltration of agents and cash into Iraq, the massive supply of material, agents, and cash to Hezbollah, their facilitative ties with Syria, potential links to Houthi insurgents in Yemen, and ruminations of activity among the Shia of the Gulf. And that only covers their Westerly focus. The difference between our involvement and Iran's involvement, is that I do not take an all things are equal approach. I support our objectives and oppose Iran's objectives.
    To say we should sacrifice soldiers, kill other people and spend treasure because we support country X therefore we should fight for their interests is a fair point. Not a point I agree with but a fair point. To paint Iran as some threat to the U.S. and that why we should go fight doesn't seem fair to me. Do you really think Hamas and Hezbollah have influenced more regimes or regimes changes than us? I don't see how anyone can come to that conclusion so equating their destablizing influence to ours doesn't seem fair at all,

    I've covered this before but here's how I see what we are doing We are in Afghanistan because their government gave cover to Al Qeada, We are working with Al Qeada in Syria because they are fighting for democracy there, We are supplying arms to Bahrain who is putting down democratic uprisings, We are bombing Somalia, Yemen and Pakistan to kill Al Qeada and we are doing nothing to Saudi Arabia which is the power center of the Wahabi's. Maybe there's an overarching strategy that I'm missing but all I see is chaos.
    Last edited by John.NoseTip; 08-20-12 at 02:08 AM.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Soldiering is soldiering in any age , that is a non-issue. I believe that technology makes for a more efficient force where casualties can be cut down due to information gathered by the various tools at the disposal of today's soldiers. Less chance based on antiquated methods of intelligence gathering which could mean a higher success rate for mission efficiency.
    I get all that, but you're leaving out the fact that armies are much more efficient at killing, as well. It's all relative. i.e. with every technological advance in how to save lives, there is an eqaul technological advance in how to take lives. We haven't seen this, because there haven't been any wars on the same scale and with the same ROE's as WW2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I get all that, but you're leaving out the fact that armies are much more efficient at killing, as well. It's all relative. i.e. with every technological advance in how to save lives, there is an eqaul technological advance in how to take lives. We haven't seen this, because there haven't been any wars on the same scale and with the same ROE's as WW2.
    I am taking that into account and will posit that technologically based stratagem would give the solder a better change of accomplishing his/her goal with less chance of exposure to injury. That is not to say there will be no injuries or fatalities that is part and parcel with any war.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I also want to add that I have no idea why some people keep conjuring up Russia and China without defining in the slightest what that means. It is impossible to imagine Russian or Chinese military intervention, almost as hard to imagine as to why they'd even want to especially from China's perspective. Will it amount to supplying arms? Despite enormous political and logistical obstacles to doing so, including the lack of any discernible benefit that could be gained. Arming Iran in the midst of an already commenced war, would be tantamount to Russia having flown S-300 batteries to Baghdad in 2003, it's insane. It will never happen. These are both countries that have clamped down on Iranian arms sales, not accelerated them. Suddenly we are supposed to believe that while Iran's ship is sinking they will upend the entire global political framework by making themselves open opponents of the US and arming Iran even though the cause is futile? Nonsense! Russian and Chinese opposition will be diplomatic, with perhaps very minor assistance such as allowing officials to seek asylum of needed, slipping some hard cash into Iranian bank accounts as the fighting draws to a close, and if insurgents take advantage of government weakness or protesters for that matter, giving similar assistance as what is occurring in Syria. But even that is a stretch.
    I think it's a basic ignorance of geograpy.

    A with actual history books, some folks have never looked at an actual map.





    How in the hell anyone can actually believe that Russia and/or China could realistically retaliate against Israel is beyond me.
    Last edited by apdst; 08-20-12 at 02:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    To say we should sacrifice soldiers, kill other people and spend treasure because we support country X therefore we should fight for their interests is a fair point. Not a point I agree with but a fair point. To paint Iran as some threat to the U.S. and that why we should go fight doesn't seem fair to me. Do you really think Hamas and Hezbollah have influenced more regimes or regimes changes than us? I don't see how anyone can come to that conclusion so equating their destablizing influence to ours doesn't seem fair at all,

    I've covered this before but here's how I see what we are doing We are in Afghanistan because their government gave cover to Al Qeada, We are working with Al Qeada in Syria because they are fighting for democracy there, We are supplying arms to Bahrain who is putting down democratic uprisings, We are bombing Somalia, Yemen and Pakistan to kill Al Qeada and we are doing nothing to Saudi Arabia which is the power center of the Wahabi's. Maybe there's an overarching strategy that I'm missing but all I see is chaos.
    Iran is a threat because it opposes our core interests in the region. At the end of the day it is the opposing force to our activity in the region, and our objectives. What are our objectives? Broadly speaking they include the steady democratization of the Middle East, the securing of allies amenable to our strategic and economic interests, the suppression of terrorist groups inimical to the United States our allies both internationally and in the region, and a general push for stability. These objectives come in the order in which it is most practicable to execute them, and in which they provide the most utility. For example I am willing to make a deal with the al-Saud because I believe that the best hope for steady liberalization and democratization for the time being comes from Saudi rule (this will depend heavily on the next Monarch however) and that it is in the US best interests to support the ruling family and secure the Saudi state, it is also a somewhat unique case of a popular Monarchy but this popularity is waning in its intensity and reach.

    So why do I oppose Iran? Because Iran seeks to extend regional hegemony with a network of states and paramilitary allies in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories, with a possible eye towards places like Bahrain (I supported the street protests in Bahrain for the record, and still do) and the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia. They are an oppressive and unpopular government which has strengthened its control over its people with a ruthless religious military complex that has seen political leaders sent to the dungeons of Evin Prison, and protesters shot in the streets. They support groups that are inimical to the objectives I list above, and groups that seek to harm and attack the US and her allies.

    Our views on the region are not compatible. I choose the view of the US at the cost of Iran's perspective, which I think is the obvious choice.

    Also I think it is not true to say we are supporting al-Qaeda in Syria, and if we want to talk about Saudi Arabia it is my area of specialization and work and would be happy to do so.

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