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Thread: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Yes, for the reasons listed above. Influence and Intervention are not equal to Imperialism.
    You're kidding right. They do want we want or we bomb them until they do. That's democracy and self determination? Yikes!

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    You're kidding right. They do want we want or we bomb them until they do. That's democracy and self determination? Yikes!
    I never said they wanted us to bomb them. You are conflating two different things. I do not believe Iran should have a nuclear weapon and that if necessary military force should be utilized. I do believe that Iranian democracy should triumph and that it is what the people desire, the US should use the means at its disposal to try and effect that where possible. In the meantime containment of the regimes influence and regional power is of paramount importance.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What gives us the right? I don't understand that question. I support our retention of nuclear weapons because I believe the United States is an important actor for moral good in the world, and it is required for our defense. I'd prefer it if we could abolish nuclear weapons and take advantage of our conventional superiority, but that is a digression. Why is it fair? It isn't fair, why on earth would I care if its fair? This isn't some toy that the teacher says we all have to share. I don't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon because I think they have a terrible government, aggressive regional ambitions inimical to sound interests, and will cause instability in an important region with the potential for aftershocks elsewhere. This is an outcome I want the United States government to prevent.
    ?
    you referred to iran but you actually described israel
    the country we assisted in its nuclear weapons development
    iran has not initiated a war on another nation in 200 years
    for israel it has been less than 200 months
    and yet you pretend it is ok for israel to possess nuclear weaponry and not iran
    totally an emotional response devoid of any basis in reality
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you referred to iran but you actually described israel
    the country we assisted in its nuclear weapons development
    iran has not initiated a war on another nation in 200 years
    for israel it has been less than 200 months
    and yet you pretend it is ok for israel to possess nuclear weaponry and not iran
    totally an emotional response devoid of any basis in reality
    Israel is a liberal democracy with whom you and many people have political disagreements. Even at the worst ends of its human rights record which has admittedly been patchy at times it is incomparable to Iran. Or do we really want to start putting Meggio Prison and Evin Prison side by side? Secondly the US did not really assist in Israel's acquisition of nuclear weapons, that was primarily facilitated by France with some support from Britain, and a reliance upon a large and resourceful Jewish diaspora. Thirdly, yes I think there is a world of difference between an Israeli nuclear weapon and an Iranian one, because I'm not so emotionally invested as to think that there is actually a real parity between the two states.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I never said they wanted us to bomb them. You are conflating two different things. I do not believe Iran should have a nuclear weapon and that if necessary military force should be utilized. I do believe that Iranian democracy should triumph and that it is what the people desire, the US should use the means at its disposal to try and effect that where possible. In the meantime containment of the regimes influence and regional power is of paramount importance.
    I could've misunderstood part of your position. So if they have democratic elections but want a nuke we shouldn't bomb them? If your answer is yes we should still bomb them because they want a nuke then I didn't misunderstand your position. You are picking and choosing who can do what by military force. There are still holes in the idea that our actions in the world are for the sake of democracy but that's a much larger topic.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    I could've misunderstood part of your position. So if they have democratic elections but want a nuke we shouldn't bomb them? If your answer is yes we should still bomb them because they want a nuke then I didn't misunderstand your position. You are picking and choosing who can do what by military force. There are still holes in the idea that our actions in the world are for the sake of democracy but that's a much larger topic.
    If they are democratic and still desire a nuclear weapon the problem becomes much less severe, but this would be a long evolution and it is still not a desirable outcome. It is also much more likely that a democratic Iran would be much more amenable to nuclear reform agreements that allow for enrichment while dismantling facilities that have no purpose but to progress towards a weapon. It is a situation akin to India, we did not desire an Indian nuclear weapon, but it alarmed us far less than a Pakistani or North Korean bomb. A liberal democracy (if Iran became that) seeking to acquire nuclear weapons is a unique situation that doesn't have much precedent. I'd have to reconsider given the new situation, and look at the variables. But I'd be much, much, much less disposed to military action. But as I said I think the problem would be much easier to resolve peacefully.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Flatulence pushs oil prices higher along with oxygen and water...they dont even try to find an excuse to rob us at the pump anymore.
    When you feel robbed at the pump I do hope you are blaming your government. The government's take on a gallon of gasoline greatly exceeds oil company profits on the same gallon. And government did nothing other than stand in the way at every step of the process.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    If they are democratic and still desire a nuclear weapon the problem becomes much less severe, but this would be a long evolution and it is still not a desirable outcome. It is also much more likely that a democratic Iran would be much more amenable to nuclear reform agreements that allow for enrichment while dismantling facilities that have no purpose but to progress towards a weapon. It is a situation akin to India, we did not desire an Indian nuclear weapon, but it alarmed us far less than a Pakistani or North Korean bomb. A liberal democracy (if Iran became that) seeking to acquire nuclear weapons is a unique situation that doesn't have much precedent. I'd have to reconsider given the new situation, and look at the variables. But I'd be much, much, much less disposed to military action. But as I said I think the problem would be much easier to resolve peacefully.
    I did misunderstand your position then. I'm all for less nukes but I just don't believe in going to war for it especially when other countries have them. So if Israel bombs Iran next Friday we should or shouldn't get involved militarily?

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by John.NoseTip View Post
    I did misunderstand your position then. I'm all for less nukes but I just don't believe in going to war for it especially when other countries have them. So if Israel bombs Iran next Friday we should or shouldn't get involved militarily?
    Depends entirely on what actually happens. That sort of call is entirely contextual I think. We should provide some non-direct assistance like satellite information, early warning detection, targeting coordination, but there is utility not having it be an Israeli venture to begin with, and waiting to see how Iran responds before choosing to step in. It also depends on what is technically feasible.

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    Re: Israel Plans Iran Strike; Citizens Say Government Serious [W:52]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    That isn't true in the slightest. The current generation has been bleeding in the streets to oppose the regime, and came out in their millions to contest the last election before being beaten down by the government. I don't have a problem with Islamic political parties, and I fully and sincerely support Muhammed Morsi in his efforts to reform Egypt, so long as he remains faithful to the democratic roots which lifted him to power. But once democracy is obviated, there is no real legitimacy.

    When are we going to stop agitating for democracy? When the last autocracy is cast down, and we have a new world order of democratic states. A goal that we have been accelerating towards for almost a century, and may be in reach within the next one.
    Things may have changed, but the last i heard a couple years ago was that the youth of Iran (who make up the majority due to the conflict with Iraq) were not dissatisfied with an islamic state, they just want a moderate form so they can join the western world.

    They do indeed dislike the harsh, corrupt system they have now.

    But the old guard is actually going to simply die off. Almost an entire generation was killed off fighting Iraq. Theres old men and young men and no one in the middle. When the old bastards die off the time of the ayatollahs will end.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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