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Thread: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    What projects? Another trip to mars

    And if these projects are inherently more valuable than this trip to mars, why don't we just skip this trip to mars and work on these other worthwhile projects of which you speak?
    Because further missions cost more money. The technology used will have to also be tried.

    Mining resources on Mars and bringing them back to earth has absurd investment costs that prohibit it from being profitable, at least for the forseeable future. Hell, there are fossil fuel deposits on earth that are too costly to make it worthwhile to retrieve.
    In the foreseeable future? Well that's not ALL science is about.

    We already know that mars is not capable of sustaining human life. I've been over the argument as to why a "bubble colony" on mars would be pointless too many times and I'm hardly interested in recanting it yet again. Terraforming is so ridiculously out of the scope of our ability right now (if it ever even will be, which is questionable to say the least) that I think it's absurd to even seriously consider.
    And we'll know this how? BY EXPLORING MARS! It's also not about what you think, it's about what you can produce evidence for.

    The fact is that the continued existence of the human species is tied to earth. And will be for a very, very, VERY long time. An amazingly cool rover on mars doesn't do anything to change this.
    It's not exclusive to Earth, hopefully. We need to find a home for the future (as I've told you before).
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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Warp drive and wormholes are both possible using Alcubierre's metrics, assuming GR is correct and complete. I doubt it is and IMHO it's just like Newton's Laws of Motion.

    Newton thought his equations of motion were applicable in all cases (including those where objects travel near the speed of light) until subsequent physicists showed his equations are just a limiting case of GR.

    Same thing will soon happen to GR in about 160 years--it will be reduced to a limiting case of a new more complete theory.

    However, assuming GR is correct and valid in all cases, then the actual technology to create an Alcubierre metric (i. e. warped spacetime that "moves" with a ship) is conceptually not complicated--all that's really being done is that some field is created around an object to keep its mass at zero or keep it from becoming infinite at a speed of c relative to an observer outside the field, so that it never reaches an infinite energy state when accelerating to c or past it. Furthermore, time dilation can just be though of as just the ratio of relativistic mass to rest mass, so if the rest mass is constant at any speed, there's no time dilation.



    you're neglecting the fact that the uncertainty principle is already taking place in our bodies. You just don't notice it because biological molecules are massive (compared to subatomic particles) and so if they carry a large error in momentum (delta-p), their velocities change very little. And if the error in momentum of molecules are large, then the minimum error in their position (delta-x) is small.

    Bottom line is that the molecules do not have to be exactly in the same place or orientation as when you started transport. A little error is OK
    Possible is a slippery word. I think it's more accurate to say that we don't know that it's impossible. Which is different than saying we know it's possible. According to our current understanding of physics, humans will most likely never develop an alcubierre drive, as the energy requirements are absurd in addition to a variety of other problems.

    Admittedly, this could change as our understanding of physics does, but to the best of our current knowledge warp drives ain't going to happen. Personally, I consider the lack of evidence of aliens quickly zipping around from solar system to solar system a la Star Wars/Star Trek as evidence that that sort of travel is impossible and will always remain so. Unfortunately.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Because further missions cost more money. The technology used will have to also be tried.
    I know it costs money, that's part of my problem. Your argument is that this trip to mars is beneficial because it will allow more trips to mars. You haven't yet said why more trip to mars will be beneficial.


    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    In the foreseeable future? Well that's not ALL science is about.
    Talking about the what's going to happen eons from now is pointless because it's wild speculation. Anything really beyond a couple hundred years, you might as well be writing a sci fi novel.


    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    And we'll know this how? BY EXPLORING MARS! It's also not about what you think, it's about what you can produce evidence for.
    as i've said, i've been over this too many times on this board. sorry, not worth my time. if you want to keep believing a human colony on mars is anything other than stupid, suit yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    It's not exclusive to Earth, hopefully. We need to find a home for the future (as I've told you before).
    Yes, it is exclusive to earth. And it will be for a very long time (as I've told YOU before) regardless of what you think humanity "needs".

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    I know it costs money, that's part of my problem. Your argument is that this trip to mars is beneficial because it will allow more trips to mars. You haven't yet said why more trip to mars will be beneficial.

    Talking about the what's going to happen eons from now is pointless because it's wild speculation. Anything really beyond a couple hundred years, you might as well be writing a sci fi novel.


    as i've said, i've been over this too many times on this board. sorry, not worth my time. if you want to keep believing a human colony on mars is anything other than stupid, suit yourself.

    Yes, it is exclusive to earth. And it will be for a very long time (as I've told YOU before) regardless of what you think humanity "needs".
    I've gone over the first part with you before. I'm done. You don't want to share the achievement of reaching Mars, then don't. I, however, will partake in the festivities.
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    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by blaxshep View Post
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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    I've gone over the first part with you before. I'm done. You don't want to share the achievement of reaching Mars, then don't. I, however, will partake in the festivities.
    I'm sure you will, i'm sure you will...






    good christ, i'm going to hell...

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Alright, let's take a look.

    How will knowing that "Nasa is effective" benefit me or really anyone for that matter? How will "rock samples" from Mars benefit me or anybody? How will knowing whether Mars does or has ever sustained life benefit me or anybody?
    Do you think discovering huge amounts of rare metals and minerals that could be mined in the future would be of benefit? Do you think the discovery of uranium deposits might be rather beneficial? Do you think understanding the geological and potentially biological transformation of an entire planet over millenia might be of benefit in predicting how our own earth might evolve... or devolve?

    Or do you simply believe science should be limited to developing vaccines, botox, and improved electronic systems for immediate gratification now?


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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    This is just Obamas attempt to try to find more people to borrow money from.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    This is just Obamas attempt to try to find more people to borrow money from.
    : do you think the Martians are packing?
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Do you think discovering huge amounts of rare metals and minerals that could be mined in the future would be of benefit? Do you think the discovery of uranium deposits might be rather beneficial? Do you think understanding the geological and potentially biological transformation of an entire planet over millenia might be of benefit in predicting how our own earth might evolve... or devolve?

    Or do you simply believe science should be limited to developing vaccines, botox, and improved electronic systems for immediate gratification now?

    I will say this. No, I don't think science should be limited to that. In fact I love science. In particular, I'm fascinated by space. Ever since I can remember. And I realize science is about discovery, it's about poking around here and there and learning things we didn't before. And most science is never even driven by the promise of concrete practical benefits. To be honest, i'm rather ambivalent towards unmanned probes, as long as they stay at a reasonable price. Further manned exploration, though, I cannot support.

    I think Curiosity will probably teach us a lot about Mars. But, ultimately, I don't think we're going to learn anything that's useful to us. However fascinating, I feel there are more pressing matters here. NASA isn't the worst of the government fat that could be trimmed, but if I got to vote on what I wanted the US budget to look like, I wouldn't put many dollars here.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Nope. But I can see how someone might mistakenly make such a straw man.
    It isn't a strawman at all you said: "How will knowing that "Nasa is effective" benefit me or really anyone for that matter? How will "rock samples" from Mars benefit me or anybody? How will knowing whether Mars does or has ever sustained life benefit me or anybody?" and so I think it was a reasonable question to ask whether or not all programs had to show a causal benefit to yourself before passing your personal muster. Various posters have expounded significantly on the potential benefits derived from a Mars mission like this, as well as the potential benefits from expanding manned operations significantly. This has included listing past benefits both in the scientific, technological, and arguably educational realms, as well as positing future benefits along those lines. You are either discounting those, or only counting ones which will have an immediate and causal relationship to any benefit that can be delivered to you or the public.

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