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Thread: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    We can't "rape the universe" of it's goods. Hell, we won't be able to travel to 90% of the universe. Jeez, take a cosmology class.
    observer92 said this.

    "What if we discover a way to mine extremely valuable minerals and space and then we earn billions and billions from that."

    I notice you didn't come down on her like you did aunt spiker.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    I hate this argument. Everyone has their pet spending project and everyone says it is a tiny fraction of the national budget. A few billion here a few billion there and pretty soon you are talking real money and you are pet projecting the economy over a cliff.
    This is not a 'pet' project, this is the most successful and far reaching space program in the history of mankind, and it costs us a pittance. .48% of the federal discretionary budget a year is not driving us over a financial cliff. Entitlements, Tax Reform, and the Defense Budget are the issues that need addressing. Shackling mankind to earth won't make one difference in that fight. Stop obfuscating and go address those issues. It's like when people attack 'pork barrel' projects, which mind you this is not, they waste time and public attention on issues that have zero bearing on what actually matters vis a vis our fiscal crises.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Ok - ignoring my qualm with spending the money at the present time.

    I do not support raping the universe of all it's goods . . . that's the stupidest reason to go exploring. If that's the ONLY reason for space exploration I'd take a firm stand 100% against it.

    We have ALL we need here and if we can't pull through the natural disasters and climate changes that are just a routine for our planet and subsequently our species then perhaps we need to consider just removing ourselves altogether worldwide Jones-town style since we can't seem to get our **** together long enough to exist amicably.
    Just as a side note... what? Why on earth wouldn't we 'rape' the solar system of its resources. If the Lunar regolith, Mars, or an asteroid have valuable materials what the hell would we be avoiding them for? So it stays in some pristine condition? Nonsense. Mine the sky dammit. We can tremendously expand the limits of human settlement, fortify the future of our species, fantastically grow our economies and available resources, and facilitate the beginnings of the spreading out of mankind into our near solar neighborhood over the coming century.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    observer92 said this.

    "What if we discover a way to mine extremely valuable minerals and space and then we earn billions and billions from that."

    I notice you didn't come down on her like you did aunt spiker.
    Spiker isn't advocating the space program. Observer's quote is a quite possible scenario. I'm not seeing why you think I would contend one, and not the other...
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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    I do not support raping the universe of all it's goods . . . that's the stupidest reason to go exploring. If that's the ONLY reason for space exploration I'd take a firm stand 100% against it.
    Uh... I believe this point has already been rebutted.

    Besides, there are other good reasons. Do you not want to explore the next 'New World'? Looking in the shorter term, a colony on the Moon would make any future missions, manned or not, much easier, as it is much cheaper to take off from the Moon. Space can offer us infinite space, resources, energy, you name it, it's there, nevermind the sheer technological leap such projects would create.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    I know all about Alcubierre. Go ahead and list me some technologies that are possible using this ... I'll wait.
    Warp drive and wormholes are both possible using Alcubierre's metrics, assuming GR is correct and complete. I doubt it is and IMHO it's just like Newton's Laws of Motion.

    Newton thought his equations of motion were applicable in all cases (including those where objects travel near the speed of light) until subsequent physicists showed his equations are just a limiting case of GR.

    Same thing will soon happen to GR in about 160 years--it will be reduced to a limiting case of a new more complete theory.

    However, assuming GR is correct and valid in all cases, then the actual technology to create an Alcubierre metric (i. e. warped spacetime that "moves" with a ship) is conceptually not complicated--all that's really being done is that some field is created around an object to keep its mass at zero or keep it from becoming infinite at a speed of c relative to an observer outside the field, so that it never reaches an infinite energy state when accelerating to c or past it. Furthermore, time dilation can just be though of as just the ratio of relativistic mass to rest mass, so if the rest mass is constant at any speed, there's no time dilation.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Warp drives are possible. Transporters really aren't as there is no way to control the way atoms are placed. You'd leave X being as you are and show up Y as a completely different arrangement.
    you're neglecting the fact that the uncertainty principle is already taking place in our bodies. You just don't notice it because biological molecules are massive (compared to subatomic particles) and so if they carry a large error in momentum (delta-p), their velocities change very little. And if the error in momentum of molecules are large, then the minimum error in their position (delta-x) is small.

    Bottom line is that the molecules do not have to be exactly in the same place or orientation as when you started transport. A little error is OK
    Last edited by solletica; 08-08-12 at 07:47 PM.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by Londoner View Post
    Uh... I believe this point has already been rebutted.

    Besides, there are other good reasons. Do you not want to explore the next 'New World'? Looking in the shorter term, a colony on the Moon would make any future missions, manned or not, much easier, as it is much cheaper to take off from the Moon. Space can offer us infinite space, resources, energy, you name it, it's there, nevermind the sheer technological leap such projects would create.
    100% correct about the technological leap. However, the way mankind still thinks about exploring space is problematic. Much of today's research and technology centers around the idea that in order to explore space, one has to build a vehicle to travel large distances fast, using powerful thrust. This is a lousy way to explore space, because there's no way to travel faster than light using this approach and furthermore, astronauts have to be kept fed and warm and shielded from radiation during long journies.

    A better way to develop the space program is to concentrate on developing instantaneous transport-type systems (i. e. like Dr. Who's TARDIS) that do not need to travel through physical space to get to their destination.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Warp drive and wormholes are both possible using Alcubierre's metrics, assuming GR is correct and complete. I doubt it is and IMHO it's just like Newton's Laws of Motion.
    Oh so we will try and refute GR now. Yay. Can I see your research, then, doc?

    Newton thought his equations of motion were applicable in all cases (including those where objects travel near the speed of light) until subsequent physicists showed his equations are just a limiting case of GR.
    Such as? Those neutrinos didn't travel faster than light in case ya missed it.

    Same thing will soon happen to GR in about 160 years--it will be reduced to a limiting case of a new more complete theory.
    String Theory?

    GR is correct and valid in all cases, then the actual technology to create an Alcubierre metric (i. e. warped spacetime that "moves" with a ship) is conceptually not complicated--all that's really being done is that some field is created around an object to keep its mass at zero or keep it from becoming infinite at a speed of c relative to an observer outside the field, so that it never reaches an infinite energy state when accelerating to c or past it. Furthermore, time dilation can just be though of as just the ratio of relativistic mass to rest mass, so if the rest mass is constant at any speed, there's no time dilation.

    Many things aren't "conceptually" hard but they are damn near impossible in our current status.

    you're neglecting the fact that the uncertainty principle is already taking place in our bodies. You just don't notice it because biological molecules are massive (compared to subatomic particles) and so if they carry a large error in momentum (delta-p), their velocities change very little. And if the error in momentum of molecules are large, then the minimum error in their position (delta-x) is small.

    Bottom line is that the molecules do not have to be exactly in the same place or orientation as when you started transport. A little error is OK
    Those transports would probably move subatomic particles no? A little error might be fine but I doubt it would be a "slight" miscalculation.
    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    So you oppose all programs that do not have a direct and immediate causal benefit to yourself?
    Nope. But I can see how someone might mistakenly make such a straw man.

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    re: NASA's rover Curiosity lands on Mars [W:206]

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    By showing that NASA can be effective, they should receive more funding and can begin projects again (as they did in the not-too-distant past).
    What projects? Another trip to mars

    And if these projects are inherently more valuable than this trip to mars, why don't we just skip this trip to mars and work on these other worthwhile projects of which you speak?

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Potentially allowing other resources that can be used for future technology. Gives us another place to exhaust resource on.
    Mining resources on Mars and bringing them back to earth has absurd investment costs that prohibit it from being profitable, at least for the forseeable future. Hell, there are fossil fuel deposits on earth that are too costly to make it worthwhile to retrieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Because you could potentially live there? If Mars is capable of sustaining life, it gives us another home and makes us that much closer to inter-planetary and inter-stellar travel.
    We already know that mars is not capable of sustaining human life. I've been over the argument as to why a "bubble colony" on mars would be pointless too many times and I'm hardly interested in recanting it yet again. Terraforming is so ridiculously out of the scope of our ability right now (if it ever even will be, which is questionable to say the least) that I think it's absurd to even seriously consider.

    The fact is that the continued existence of the human species is tied to earth. And will be for a very, very, VERY long time. An amazingly cool rover on mars doesn't do anything to change this.

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