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Thread: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

  1. #481
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    OK, let's review. Your argument previously was that conservatives should condemn him AND his ideas. Then you said that ideas are not the problem, separating the individual from the ideas.

    Now you argument is that his EXTREMISM is the problem. The problem for you is that you are back to combining the individual with the ideology since extremism is defined as:


    Extremism is any ideology or political act far outside the perceived political center of a society; or otherwise claimed to violate common moral standards.

    So again, you first condemned the individual AND his ideology, next you separated the individual from the ideology and said the ideology is not the problem, the problem is the individual....and then finally you say EXTREMISM is the problem.....which is the individual acting out using EXTREME ideology as a rationale.
    His EXTREME version of the ideology. That is based on his interpretation. The ideology is not the issue. His interpretation of it, is... which is extreme. He then acts on his interpretation.


    If the individual is using (interpreting) literal translations, such as verse calling for the killing of non-believers (which is in the Abrahamic texts), then it is still the individual AND the ideology, they are not separate, they are combined. We do not excuse murder because of the ideology being used, the literal interpretation is condemned, that text is condemned by many because of ideology of justifying the murder of non-believers. There are whole schools of apologists defending the text, setup just to defend some the most insane, irrational aspects of the text.
    Nope. They are completely separate. How one interprets those texts and then acts on those interpretations is the issue, not the text itself. There are plenty of folks who just want to condemn religion and ideologies, who only think in black/white terms and make these errors that I have pointed out.

    Oh yes, you first condemned the individual AND the ideology, then you condemned just the individual, and now you have gone back to condemning both with your new "extremism" argument.
    Keep reading and re-reading. I'm sure, eventually, you'll understand my explanation.

    Aside from the fact that your argument keeps flip-flopping, I was never required to show that an ideology was the problem only when it is 100% effective, causing ALL to act out in its most extreme, literal form.
    If you cannot show that groups of people who follow an ideology in some consistent fashion, your argument fails. Since you have not done this... your argument fails.

    My argument still is that the ideology is a problem when it calls for the murder of those outside of the group.
    You can keep arguing that is not a problem, and keep going through your verbal gymnastic demonstrations of combining, separating and recombining the ideology and the individual, but you are still defending bad ideologies, excusing them by arguing they are not a problem, that it is totally the individual.
    And your argument is a failure. Who creates these ideologies? Your answer will help you to understand why your argument fails.

    There are no bad ideas, just bad people....that is poppycock, BS.
    Since ideas don't do anything... behaviors DO, you have still failed to demonstrate the validity of your position. The poppycock is yours.
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_rebson View Post

    Conservative Christians live in Oklahoma, Oklahoma doesn't have disasters like hurricanes and earthquakes.
    Dust bowl.

    This summer Oklahoma has had the worst drought in history + the worst wild fires in OK history.

    The invisible man in the sky has spoken, false prophets and fake Christians in the bible belt, your day has come.

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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    His EXTREME version of the ideology. That is based on his interpretation. The ideology is not the issue. His interpretation of it, is... which is extreme. He then acts on his interpretation.
    The ideology is already EXTREMISM, it is white supremacy/neo-NAZI-ism, he did not have to go outside of, beyond, the basic mainstream understanding of it. For you to argue that members of his own group, other neo-NAZI skinheads, should condemn his actions just shows how naive your understanding of this extremist group is. This is a group based on hate.




    Nope. They are completely separate. How one interprets those texts and then acts on those interpretations is the issue, not the text itself. There are plenty of folks who just want to condemn religion and ideologies, who only think in black/white terms and make these errors that I have pointed out.
    BS, this is an apology for any ideology, no matter how extreme the ideology is, no matter how wrong, destructive or corrosive. This is an attempt to make the irrational rational. This is an argument in favor of the worst ideologies, including the one at hand that is based on racism, xenophobia, homophobia, and anti-Semitism.



    Keep reading and re-reading. I'm sure, eventually, you'll understand my explanation.
    You already have, you have done nothing but to repeat the same excuse, that the idea is not a problem. Again, the idea that other neo-Nazi skinheads should be the ones the to be critical of "the guy and his beliefs" is a recognition that there is something wrong with the beliefs, and you really think his beliefs are different from the group as a whole. That is pure naivety.



    If you cannot show that groups of people who follow an ideology in some consistent fashion, your argument fails. Since you have not done this... your argument fails.
    Ridiculous, your standard for measuring whether an ideology is a "problem" is if it has 100% of adherents acting out. If they are only being anti-Semetic 99% of the time when they encounter a Jew ....thats OK. If they are committing racism 99% of the time they encounter non-whites...that's OK. In your world, it is only when these acts happen 100% of the time by 100% of the adherents that the ideology is a "problem". And you complain about B&W mindsets.



    And your argument is a failure. Who creates these ideologies? Your answer will help you to understand why your argument fails.
    You are back again to separating the human from the idea, that there are no bad ideas.



    Since ideas don't do anything... behaviors DO, you have still failed to demonstrate the validity of your position. The poppycock is yours.
    Anti-Semitism is not a inborn behavior, it is an idea learned. It is not a socially accepted norm.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 08-08-12 at 12:58 PM.
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Oklahoma isn't being spared from any of Gawd's wrath, far from it.

    We are more than 'blessed' with killer tornadoes, and multiple droughts. This year is a hard drought, but we have had several bad years strung together, each the worst since '56. I went from near 100 head of cattle to 24. I have had to pay truckers more in freight than the poor quality hay was worth to get hay from farms several states away. Ponds are dry and many ranchers have to haul water to their cattle. If this is Gawd's Blessing I wouldn't mind someone else receiving this sort of blessing from time to time...

    It is pretty ignorant to think Gawd is visiting hardship on one part or parts of the Republic because of political stands. Some folks need to change the TV channel or stop visiting certain websites. Gawd and I had a talk years ago and She assured me many self righteous folks are in for a huge surprise come judgement day.

    I believed Her...

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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Oklahoma isn't being spared from any of Gawd's wrath, far from it.

    We are more than 'blessed' with killer tornadoes, and multiple droughts. This year is a hard drought, but we have had several bad years strung together, each the worst since '56. I went from near 100 head of cattle to 24. I have had to pay truckers more in freight than the poor quality hay was worth to get hay from farms several states away. Ponds are dry and many ranchers have to haul water to their cattle. If this is Gawd's Blessing I wouldn't mind someone else receiving this sort of blessing from time to time...

    It is pretty ignorant to think Gawd is visiting hardship on one part or parts of the Republic because of political stands. Some folks need to change the TV channel or stop visiting certain websites. Gawd and I had a talk years ago and She assured me many self righteous folks are in for a huge surprise come judgement day.

    I believed Her...
    It's amazing how small our little worlds are while at the same time thinking they also encompass everyone else's world.
    My main function as a Christian is to be the biggest possible jerk as a demonstration of the awe found in God's Grace and Forgiveness. (That love part comes in to play at some point)

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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You're another one who is so black/white that you don't know the difference between an extremist and mainstream ideology.
    Extremism, such as the one seen in WI, and mainstream GOP rhetoric are the same thing. . .


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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    His EXTREME version of the ideology. That is based on his interpretation. The ideology is not the issue. His interpretation of it, is... which is extreme. He then acts on his interpretation.
    An interpretation that GOP pols both fuel and exploit to win elections.

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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Since ideas don't do anything... behaviors DO, you have still failed to demonstrate the validity of your position. The poppycock is yours.
    That's like saying you can't eat the seeds, just the carrots and lettuce.

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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Extremism, such as the one seen in WI, and mainstream GOP rhetoric are the same thing. . .
    Like I said, more evidence that you don't know the difference between extremism and mainstream ideology. The more you post, the more evident you make your confusion on this issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #490
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    An interpretation that GOP pols both fuel and exploit to win elections.
    Not at all... unless you are misreading everything you read.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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