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Thread: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

  1. #371
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The reality is many members are condemning this guy and his beliefs. The issue is that in the midst of doing that we have to also correct the ignorant bull**** being slung around suggesting that, simultaneously as we blast this guy for being a horrible person and ignorant ****, we operate ideologically due to racism beause that's supposedly inherent to "right wing ideology" as a whole. It's hard to JUST condemn the extremists on your side, and you know I'm one that's quick to do that, when simultaneous to doing so you're being referred to as someone whose thought process is somehow inherently racist, your regional location means you're inherently racist, or in other circumstances that you're a step away from being Fred Phelps.

    I agree with you regarding extremists on both sides of the coin, and on the fact right wingers need to condemn guys like this. I'm simply saying that some of the reason why right wingers spend times in these threads away from condemning the guy is because were also having to argue that White Supremist views isn't somehow integral to the Right.
    The notion that the Far Right on this forum condemns and denounces racism and racially based posts is ludicrous. It's for those of us on the left to denounce it, and then for those of you on the right to denounce us. That's the pattern, and it continues in this thread.
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Funny how morons tend to trip over themselves decrying a 'rush to judgement' re acts of terrorism in the middle east yet they have no problem doing so in this case. You yourself dont even have the decency to allow the blood to dry before you turn a tragic incident perpetrated by a vulgar ugly human being into a mindless partisan attack. The truly sad thing...your trainwreck partisan mindset is at least as repugnant than the asshole that committed the act if not more so. He perpetrated the act...you bathe in it and attempt to score political points. Speaks volumes about the shooter...and...you.
    So I'm worse than a neo-nazi who just murdered 6 people in the name of white supremacy? You really are on a different planet, aren't you? Perhaps in your world, white racists who murder are more acceptable than those that call them out.

    I'd say you and he have far more in common.
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Sorry, but the argument Capt is making is that the ideas are not the problem.
    It's the argument that's always used. Far Right ideology is never a contributing factor to these kinds of incidents. They all apparently occur in a vacuum.
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Sikh temple shooter: decorated Army veteran on watchlist for 10 years
    Sikh temple shooter: decorated Army veteran on watchlist for 10 years (+video) - CSMonitor.com

    Wade Michael Page, who officials say shot and killed six people in a shooting at a Sikh temple Sunday in Wisconsin, was a decorated Army veteran psychological warfare specialist and white supremacist who has been watched with concern by anti-hate groups for more than 10 years.

    A member of a racist skinhead punk band, Mr. Page, who was killed in a shootout with police, had also tried to make purchases from the National Alliance, a neo-Nazi organization, according to Heidi Beirich, director of the the Intelligence Program at the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).

    "We've been tracking him for more than a decade," says Ms. Beirich. The SPLC has long warned of the dangerous ties between white supremacist groups and the US military. "We know there have been a lot of white supremacists in the military," Beirich adds. The problem was a source of particular concern for the SPLC in the mid-2000s, when the civil rights group warned the US military about a spate of extremist activity among US forces in 2006. At that time, the Pentagon "steadfastly denied that a problem existed and insisted that its ‘zero tolerance’ policy was sufficient to keep organized racists out of its ranks,” according to the SPLC.
    The problem was that while the US military had banned “active participation” in extremist groups, it did not specify prohibitions against, for example, posting to white supremacist social media pages.
    [.......]
    Three years earlier, in 2006, the SPLC had published “A Few Bad Men,” a report noting that “large numbers” of neo-Nazi skinheads were joining the armed forces “to acquire combat and weapons training – skills that could be used to commit terrorist acts against targets in the US.”
    [........]
    White supremacist groups including the National Alliance continue to have active “outreach programs” to recruit members of the US military into their organizations, says Beirich. “They have literally reached out to people from the military to come work for them,” Beirich adds, noting that the groups prize the fighting and training expertise that potential recruits develop in the US military.....
    Last edited by mbig; 08-06-12 at 06:51 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    In April 2009, DHS issued an intelligence assessment, co-authored by Johnson, titled " Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment ." The document was one of many threat assessments shared between DHS and state and local law enforcement agencies to keep them apprised of potential and looming threats, and warned of a surge in right-wing extremism due to the election of the country's first black president and the economic recession.

    Although the report was intended only for distribution to law enforcement agencies, it was immediately leaked to the media causing a political firestorm among conservative pundits, who wrongly suggested that it labeled all conservatives as potential terrorists.

    DHS initially defended the report, but within days caved to political pressure and practically disowned it, with Secretary Napolitano apologizing to the American Legion for the report's mention of military veterans. But DHS did more than just publicly buckle under the political weight of conservative critics. According to Johnson, the department effectively dismantled his intelligence team following the right’s uproar.

    In an in-depth interview published in the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Intelligence Report , Johnson reveals the level of sway the political right had in thwarting intelligence work on right-wing extremism. He says DHS deliberately "mischaracterized the report as unauthorized, even though it had passed through proper channels" and "instituted restrictive policies that brought the important work of his unit to a virtual standstill." As a result, Johnson "left DHS in dismay and was followed by almost all the members of his team, leaving a single analyst where there had been six." In comparison, there are at least 25 analysts devoted to tracking Islamic terrorism.

    When questioned about Johnson’s claims -- which have been confirmed by current and former department officials in the Washington Post – DHS officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, have repeatedly disputed his account and insist that "the level of activity by right-wing extremist groups has remained consistent over the past few years." In addition, they claim "the perception of increased extremist activity may be due to increased awareness of the threat by the government and the public." But the numbers beg to differ.


    How the Political Right Bullied the Department of Homeland Security Into Ignoring the Threat of Right-Wing Extremism | Alternet
    Just to follow up on this....SPLC has stated that they had been monitoring Page:

    Officials at the Southern Poverty Law Center said they had been tracking Mr. Page for about a decade because of his ties to the white supremacist movement and they described him as “a frustrated neo-Nazi who had been the leader of a racist white-power band.”
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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    How is it that you can be bigoted against a religious ideology but not a political one? That makes no sense.
    One who makes himself a worm cannot complain when tread upon.

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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now! View Post
    How is it that you can be bigoted against a religious ideology but not a political one? That makes no sense.
    Who said that?
    My main function as a Christian is to be the biggest possible jerk as a demonstration of the awe found in God's Grace and Forgiveness. (That love part comes in to play at some point)

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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    This is an argument to divorce ideology from action. It is totally false. The values you act upon can be legit, rational...or not. Those values can be judged. Your argument is to remove judgement of ideologies, an argument that ideas are all neutral, no matter how extreme that idea appears.

    This is a totally false argument, it is BS.
    No, it's totally on target. You are attempting to paint things as variable as an ideology as a concrete concept. It's not. Everyone has their own personal interpretation of an ideology. It might vary only slightly, but it varies. And those interpretations mold that individuals behavior. That's why we don't see EVERYONE from a specific ideology shooting up churches/temples/mosques/etc...


    Making false arguments is NOT clearing things up at all, other than making clear what kind of arguments a person makes.
    Since my argument was completely on target, it certainly cleared things up for those who aren't wedded to their falsely rigid perception of an ideological concept.

    Edit:
    It appears as though there are ideas you hold to, an I would assume that they are legitimate to you:



    I would love to see how you would make an argument that the views of white supremacy/neo-NAZI-ism are not a problem.
    I personally do not like those views. Ultimately, I have no issue if someone has them, though... depending on how they act on them, of course.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by Furiounova View Post
    There isnt much of a hassle with partisanship on discussing the epidemic of social terrorism because too many still think each attack is an isolated incident.
    The reason these incidents happen isn't so much about ideology, but it IS, partially, about partisanship in another way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Mass Shooting at Sikh Temple Outside Milwaukee [W:211]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    But you just made the argument that the ideology is not the problem.

    That is a total contradiction of arguments.
    Re-read my post. I am completely consistent and never claimed ideology was a problem.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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