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Super rich hold $32 trillion in offshore havens


It isn't the responsibility of those who have wealth to take care of those who don't.


"Muzzle not the ox that treadeth out the grain."
"The workman is worthy of his hire."

They didn't make all that wealth with their own lily white hands... I'd say they have some responsibility to share a little more with those who do the scutwork than they've been doing lately.


Let's look at a scenario with some numbers small enough to be imaginable...

Boss 1 owns a small business with ten employees. The business turns two million profit a year before labor costs. He pays his employees 25k each a year, for a total of 250k labor, and keeps the other 1.75 million.

Boss 2 owns a small business with ten employees, and turns two million profit annually before labor costs. He pays his employees 50k each for a total of 500k, and keeps the other 1.5 million.

Boss1 and Boss2 are both still rich, but one is sharing the wealth a bit more reasonably than the other. Which would you rather work for?

In recent years I've begun to believe we have too many Boss1 types and too few Boss2 types around. Outsourcing and illegal labor being two cases-in-point.
 
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It is long past time to start making arrests. The vast majority of folks doing this are doing it to avoid paying their taxes. We can't afford to let them continue stealing these enormous sums of money from the taxpayers. Ramp up the IRS and bring the hammer down.
 
What is this? An appeal to emotion?

To your stats, so what?

It isn't the responsibility of those who have wealth to take care of those who don't.

Then why should the masses look out for the wealthy? Why should we respect their right to a large share of the wealth of a productive nation of people? Why should we be their keeper, if their guiding ethic is, "I am an island?"

You cling to a silly ideological paradigm in the face of clear contrary data. Unless the system can sustain the masses, there's no reason for the masses to sustain the system.
 
I'm sure they have their justifications. That doesn't make it right, though.

Most people will never see a million dollars in one place at one time, that is theirs. A billion is a thousand million. A trillion is a thousand billion... a million million.

Again, I begrudge no man a big paycheck, a McMansion and a fat portfolio.... but isn't there a point where it gets a little ridiculous? Once you have a couple hundred million, more isn't about wealth it is about power. Power and status.

I know economics is not a zero-sum game... wealth can be created or destroyed. But if somewhere near half the world's GDP is being held in offshore accounts, there ain't much "trickle down" going on!

What makes it 'right' or 'not right'? Many businesses have admitted to holdin off on hiring and to curtailing spending because they don't trust the government or what is coming next. And can you blame them? It's one thing if they are breaking into poor peoples houses and stealing their pennies. Thats not what is happening. They are amassing wealth legimately and choosing to not reinvest a significant portion at this time. I dot blame them.
 
The bankers robbed everyone of hundreds of billions, then went to the government and said, unless you give us another trillion or two we'll collapse the whole system. That bailout money was the tax payers.

What the rich do is put out a bag with $100 of their money and tell everyone they've got it in a real good investment. Other people add a few dollars here and there, till the bag is stuffed with cash. The rich who put the original $100 in take a few thousand out leaving everyone else to divvy up what's left. That's less money for everyone else to spend in a system shrinking in debt from sticky fingered hoarders.

They ship out jobs for profit, won't increase pay or benefits and cry poor mouth, while stuffing their bank accounts.
They rob me with rent/mortgage, fuel and food costs, cable and cell bills, energy and water, insurance and medical, etc etc.

I don't want to necessarily amass wealth, I just want to survive.

Of course...THAT'S what happened. The banks "robbed" you. Good ****ing lord...how pathetic.
 
What makes it 'right' or 'not right'? Many businesses have admitted to holdin off on hiring and to curtailing spending because they don't trust the government or what is coming next. And can you blame them? It's one thing if they are breaking into poor peoples houses and stealing their pennies. Thats not what is happening. They are amassing wealth legimately and choosing to not reinvest a significant portion at this time. I dot blame them.

I don't get it. Somedays Obama is a lackey of business interests. Other days they're afraid of him. You can't have it both ways VanceMack. Which is it?
 
Super rich hold $32 trillion in offshore havens - Yahoo! News

So is this fair capitalism or are the rich just using the system to amass and hoard wealth for the sake of it?

Don't forget, these statistics apply to as many Democrats as they do Republicans.

Here is but one many good examples!

The Boston Herald is keeping the heat on Senator Kerry about the half-million dollars in excise and in sales-and-use taxes he has dodged by mooring his yacht in Rhode Island, rather than in the state he represents in the Senate, Massachusetts. Today's Herald reports that the "clearly perturbed" senator "slammed the door" on reporters who were asking him about the matter — but only after cryptically responding to a question about whether he had brought the boat into Massachusetts by saying, "It depends on who owns it."

Sen. John Kerry skips town on sails tax - BostonHerald.com

KerryYacht.jpg


"Senator John Kerry finds it repulsive or unfair when other people dodge their tax responsibility, but apparently not so repulsive or unfair that he changes his own family's behavior on the matter, to the extent that it is within his control."
 
What makes it 'right' or 'not right'? Many businesses have admitted to holdin off on hiring and to curtailing spending because they don't trust the government or what is coming next. And can you blame them? It's one thing if they are breaking into poor peoples houses and stealing their pennies. Thats not what is happening. They are amassing wealth legimately and choosing to not reinvest a significant portion at this time. I dot blame them.

You'll probably recall I've said more than once, that government policy is leaving business afraid of their own shadow and unsure which way to jump.

But somewhere around 32 TRILLION in untaxed offshore accounts is.... incredible.
 
The government collects taxes on foreign bank accounts.
Like someone said: take all of the rich peoples money and the money will last about a week. Then we can be like Cuba.

Actually, according to this, it would only take half of the money simply being sat on in offshore accounts to zero the national debt.
 
You'll probably recall I've said more than once, that government policy is leaving business afraid of their own shadow and unsure which way to jump.

But somewhere around 32 TRILLION in untaxed offshore accounts is.... incredible.

If they are torn it is between keeping the same greedy behavior and hold on to all the cash they can or have some faith in the Americans again and invest in their homeland. There will be no investment as long as Corporations continue to see the American consumer as hopelessly over their heads in debt, with the Govt. doing nothing to change it.
 
The government doesn't need to take money away from the rich, the rich need to release it back into the economy in the form of better wages for workers. We seem to be caught in a vicious circle...businesses are hanging on to cash because there is no demand, workers are not creating demand because they are trying to pay down debt or aren't making any money at all because they are out of work.

Maybe the rich don't care...demand is increasing in emerging markets, so they don't care if the U.S. and Europe's markets become moribund.
 
I don't get it. Somedays Obama is a lackey of business interests. Other days they're afraid of him. You can't have it both ways VanceMack. Which is it?

Please review these comments by Barack Obama.

Then you will know.

Obama: My Plan Makes Electricity Rates Skyrocket

 
even with all those "havens" the top one percent still pay 40% of the income tax even though they only make 22% of the income

And they get that 22% ($32+ trillion), which is ONLY the cash from the other 99%.
 
The government doesn't need to take money away from the rich, the rich need to release it back into the economy in the form of better wages for workers. We seem to be caught in a vicious circle...businesses are hanging on to cash because there is no demand, workers are not creating demand because they are trying to pay down debt or aren't making any money at all because they are out of work.

Maybe the rich don't care...demand is increasing in emerging markets, so they don't care if the U.S. and Europe's markets become moribund.

Your analysis is correct.

Why do you believe it is that government spending ($5 trillion, so far!) has failed to get our economy moving forward again?

Spending-stimulus advocates claim that Congress can "inject" new money into the economy, increasing demand and therefore production. This raises the obvious question: From where does the government acquire the money it pumps into the economy? Congress does not have a vault of money waiting to be distributed. Every dollar Congress injects into the economy must first be taxed or borrowed out of the economy. No new spending power is created. It is merely redistributed from one group of people to another.

We both know Congress cannot create new purchasing power out of thin air. If it funds new spending with taxes, it is simply redistributing existing purchasing power from the private sector to the government sector (while decreasing incentives by the private sector to produce income and output).

If Congress instead borrows the money from domestic investors, those investors will have that much less to invest or to spend in the private economy. If they borrow the money from foreigners, the balance of payments will adjust by equally raising net imports, leaving total demand and output unchanged. Every dollar Congress spends must first come from somewhere else.

For example, many lawmakers claim that every $1 billion in highway stimulus can create 47,576 new construction jobs. But Congress must first borrow that $1 billion from the private economy, which will then lose at least as many jobs. Highway spending simply transfers jobs and income from one part of the economy to another. As Heritage Foundation economist Ronald Utt has explained, "The only way that $1 billion of new highway spending can create 47,576 new jobs is if the $1 billion appears out of nowhere as if it were manna from heaven."

This statement has been confirmed by the Department of Transportation and the General Accounting Office (since renamed the Government Accountability Office), yet lawmakers continue to base policy on this economic fallacy.

What the Democrats fail to understand and most conservatives have always understood is removing water from one end of a swimming pool (the economy) and pouring it in the other end will not raise the overall water level. Similarly, taking dollars from one part of the economy and distributing it to another part of the economy will not expand the economy.
 
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If they are torn it is between keeping the same greedy behavior and hold on to all the cash they can or have some faith in the Americans again and invest in their homeland. There will be no investment as long as Corporations continue to see the American consumer as hopelessly over their heads in debt, with the Govt. doing nothing to change it.

And they get that 22% ($32+ trillion), which is ONLY the cash from the other 99%.

Read the thread you guys. Or hell, even the article in the OP. Just... read it.

QFT:

kamikaze483 said:
First of all, these are global numbers- so nothing about "capitalism" can be inferred from the data.

haymarket said:
It applies to MORE than just the USA...... from the article

beerftw said:
problem is 32 trillion isnt for america,its worldwide across 139 developing nations.
 
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Your analysis is correct.

Why do you believe it is that government spending ($5 trillion, so far!) has failed to get our economy moving forward again?

Spending-stimulus advocates claim that Congress can "inject" new money into the economy, increasing demand and therefore production. This raises the obvious question: From where does the government acquire the money it pumps into the economy? Congress does not have a vault of money waiting to be distributed. Every dollar Congress injects into the economy must first be taxed or borrowed out of the economy. No new spending power is created. It is merely redistributed from one group of people to another.

We both know Congress cannot create new purchasing power out of thin air. If it funds new spending with taxes, it is simply redistributing existing purchasing power from the private sector to the government sector (while decreasing incentives by the private sector to produce income and output).

If Congress instead borrows the money from domestic investors, those investors will have that much less to invest or to spend in the private economy. If they borrow the money from foreigners, the balance of payments will adjust by equally raising net imports, leaving total demand and output unchanged. Every dollar Congress spends must first come from somewhere else.

For example, many lawmakers claim that every $1 billion in highway stimulus can create 47,576 new construction jobs. But Congress must first borrow that $1 billion from the private economy, which will then lose at least as many jobs. Highway spending simply transfers jobs and income from one part of the economy to another. As Heritage Foundation economist Ronald Utt has explained, "The only way that $1 billion of new highway spending can create 47,576 new jobs is if the $1 billion appears out of nowhere as if it were manna from heaven."

This statement has been confirmed by the Department of Transportation and the General Accounting Office (since renamed the Government Accountability Office), yet lawmakers continue to base policy on this economic fallacy.

What the Democrats fail to understand and most conservatives have always understood is removing water from one end of a swimming pool (the economy) and pouring it in the other end will not raise the overall water level. Similarly, taking dollars from one part of the economy and distributing it to another part of the economy will not expand the economy.

Except the water's not in the swimming pool -- it's sitting in 32 trillion buckets in some other country. In this case, the government wants to pour a few buckets back into the pool.
 
Except the water's not in the swimming pool -- it's sitting in 32 trillion buckets in some other country. In this case, the government wants to pour a few buckets back into the pool.

Which government are you talking about? The $32 Trillion belongs to rich from 139 different countries.
 
I think the debate here is more about what priorities are in place in a person's life. In America, John Adams wrote that in Man's pursuit of happiness, there has to be ambition and the conquering of the material world. And to me, considering that he was a forefather to The United States, it makes sense as to why these values are transferred to our culture.

Economic growth at all times. Consumption. An individualistic perception of the world.

The debate isn't between the money in the tax havens. The debate is between what exactly is one's purpose in life? Is it to accrue wealth and power at no matter the cost? Is it individual self maximization? Or does somebody have more empathy for the common man, and wants to help, even if that means there is less mastery of the material world? I like the idea of helping people to the right and left of me, with the understanding that I am to the right and left of somebody else.

So honestly, I don't think this debate is going to go anywhere besides bickering. The true discussion is about our values and philosophies of life and perception in this world. That's the true debate.
 
Which government are you talking about? The $32 Trillion belongs to rich from 139 different countries.

His post was clearly about American politics, as was my response, but the principle applies in general. That money is being sheltered, it isn't driving economic growth in any country, so it isn't in any swimming pool.
 
Except the water's not in the swimming pool -- it's sitting in 32 trillion buckets in some other country. In this case, the government wants to pour a few buckets back into the pool.

Why is it sitting in 32 trillion buckets in some other country?

There has to be a reason!

Why are wealthy Americans afraid to bring this wealth back to the United States?

Could their decisions have anything to do with Barack Obama's very foolish “tax the rich" policies?

When property taxes go up in one state, what do the wealthy people do? They just move to a state with lower taxes.

International finance works no differently.
 
Except the water's not in the swimming pool -- it's sitting in 32 trillion buckets in some other country. In this case, the government wants to pour a few buckets back into the pool.

after claiming that those who filled most of the pool aren't giving their fair share of water

anything that keeps this government from taking more money is good

the US government needs to prove it can live on a diet for a century or so before it talks about spending more
 
Why is it sitting in 32 trillion buckets in some other country?

There has to be a reason!

Why are wealthy Americans afraid to bring this wealth back to the United States?

Could their decisions have anything to do with Barack Obama's very foolish “tax the rich" policies?

When property taxes go up in one state, what do the wealthy people do? They just move to a state with lower taxes.

International finance works no differently.

There is a reason. Our policies -- tax and otherwise -- are insufficient. It's not just wealth that's pooling -- it's political influence as well. There is a political imbalance at the heart of the issue. This is about are more than not liking Obama.
 
His post was clearly about American politics, as was my response, but the principle applies in general. That money is being sheltered, it isn't driving economic growth in any country, so it isn't in any swimming pool.

You referenced $32 Trillion dollars, so wheredja get that number from? You said "the" government wants to take some of it. Which government, if the money belongs to citizens of 139 different countries? Just admit you, like a bunch of the others, including the originator of this thread, aren't even reading the article you're commenting on.
 
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If businesses won't give their employees a raise, then the government will have to do it...eliminate all federal income taxes for anyone earning less than, say, $100,000. Increased demand will make investments loosen up and have capital start flowing again. Bump the capital gains tax up to offset the revenue difference, disincentivize people somewhat from keeping money locked up in investments that add nothing to the economy.

The way I see it, the rich have benefitted from the worker, and are literally keeping the profits of our labor locked up. In a fair system, that profit would be more evenly distributed as bonus for good work done. We wouldn't have an international jet set oligarch class that thumbs their nose at citizenship and and nationalism as old fashioned ideas. Civic pride and social cohesion demand that we care about those around us, we cannot all be independent operators merely using each other for personal gain.

If being rich requires me to screw my brother over, then I am proud to remain poor. May God have mercy on the souls of those who think otherwise.
 
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