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Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

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BTW, while we're comparing countries, here is a list of murder rates by nation. We're nowhere near the worst of the pack, but most nations in the developed world have lower rates than we do.
 
His point, if i am not mistaken, is that when you have a more culturally diverse grouping you tend to higher crime because of the diversity. Different cultural backgrounds clash.....

so that fact that we have Germans, Italians, Jews, Irish, Scots, Russians, Poles, and English......means that we will automatically have a higher crime rate?

that's dumb and intellectually absurd.
 
I think you are overstating it, but you do have a point. When I was a kid, "courtesy" was very very important in social settings; now it has been replaced by "attitude". Rudeness is mistaken for strength, arrogance for ability, selfishness for ambition, and pride no longer needs to be based on actual accomplishments. Sometimes our society does seem like a "death of a thousand tiny cuts" and there are plenty of opportunities for haters to find an excuse for their hatred.

Even so, there are still lots of good people out there. They just seem to be few because the bad ones are so loud and so visible.

I am not saying there are no good people. I know there are. But in country of 312 million people I bet you couldnt find more than a 10 million people who dont have hate for a group of people.
 
Sure, an American on welfare and food stamps and living in subsidized housing is rich compared to a Kenyan back-woods village farmer... but that isn't relevant to the effect of poverty on our culture in terms of crime.

Poverty is relative to the nation's norms, and to the gap between the haves and have-nots, which is growing. Half the country looks at the other half with envy today, because of that gap. That contributes to hate and coveting what others in your culture have that you do not.

Uh. You mean ninety-something percent looks at a tiny fraction of the superrich.
 
I am not saying there are no good people. I know there are. But in country of 312 million people I bet you couldnt find more than a 10 million people who dont have hate for a group of people.

you are possibly correct, as we do have a large number of white supremacist & Neo-Nazi hate groups in the USA.
 
so that fact that we have Germans, Italians, Jews, Irish, Scots, Russians, Poles, and English......means that we will automatically have a higher crime rate?

that's dumb and intellectually absurd.

are you able to explain how are like usual are you just spewing garbage statements. you can look at the numbers. we are one of the most violent countries in the world, and we are one of the most culturally diverse. I havent looked up the numbers exactlly but for countries not at war i bet we are the most violent in the world. and i am pretty sure we are the most culturally diverse. there is more anger and hate in this country than any where else
 
^ I bet he mentions something like NAACP :lol:
 
Sure, an American on welfare and food stamps and living in subsidized housing is rich compared to a Kenyan back-woods village farmer... but that isn't relevant to the effect of poverty on our culture in terms of crime.

Poverty is relative to the nation's norms, and to the gap between the haves and have-nots, which is growing. Half the country looks at the other half with envy today, because of that gap. That contributes to hate and coveting what others in your culture have that you do not.

being envious doenst make them poor. when most of our country is considered poor, then poor is the standard. and if it is the standard then the standard could be considered too high. the gap is growing and in my opinion the poor are more to blame than anyone for the gap but that isnt the topic of this discussion but i'd love to have that conversation with you if you like in an appropiate thread.
 
Uh. You mean ninety-something percent looks at a tiny fraction of the superrich.


In some cases, yes, you have the poor-to-struggling looking at Lifestyles of The Rich and Shameless and envying. But you also have the 35-50% of the population that can barely/not-quite afford what American norms consider a "decent lifestyle"... a reasonably comfortable home with electricity and air conditioning, a car that doesn't break down every month and isn't covered in Bondo or rust, health care insurance that covers important stuff adequately, a decent diet, and a little something left over for savings and entertainment, looking at the half of the population living in knocked-up-in-a-month McMansions, driving new 30k+ vehicles, and vacationing in Florida twice a year and feeling left out.

Sure, some of it is failing to pursue education and opportunities or laziness, but not all of it by a long shot. One factor is simply that blue-collar jobs in most states don't pay a living wage anymore, like they did in the 1950's and 60's. There are a lot of factors like outsourcing and cheap illegal labor, but thats a big subject all by itself and I don't want to derail the thread.

Suffice it to say that the PERCEPTION of being poor has a dramatic effect on crime rates, and that perception is based on what appears to be the norms in your culture, not in someone else's culture.
 
you are possibly correct, as we do have a large number of white supremacist & Neo-Nazi hate groups in the USA.

Not to mention a DOJ that permits dead or alive bounties to be openly posted for selected citizens, IFF that group is not racist. LOL
 
In some cases, yes, you have the poor-to-struggling looking at Lifestyles of The Rich and Shameless and envying. But you also have the 35-50% of the population that can barely/not-quite afford what American norms consider a "decent lifestyle"... a reasonably comfortable home with electricity and air conditioning, a car that doesn't break down every month and isn't covered in Bondo or rust, health care insurance that covers important stuff adequately, a decent diet, and a little something left over for savings and entertainment, looking at the half of the population living in knocked-up-in-a-month McMansions, driving new 30k+ vehicles, and vacationing in Florida twice a year and feeling left out.

Sure, some of it is failing to pursue education and opportunities or laziness, but not all of it by a long shot. One factor is simply that blue-collar jobs in most states don't pay a living wage anymore, like they did in the 1950's and 60's. There are a lot of factors like outsourcing and cheap illegal labor, but thats a big subject all by itself and I don't want to derail the thread.

Suffice it to say that the PERCEPTION of being poor has a dramatic effect on crime rates, and that perception is based on what appears to be the norms in your culture, not in someone else's culture.

I think the problem is that the decent lifestyle that the wage provided in the 50's and 60's is no longer considered a decent lifestyle. It is very much perception. A perception that because all these new products come out, that if you can't afford one you are somehow a victim of those who can.
 
Cultural factors are very much in play in comparing different countries and what happens there in terms of violence. Without taking these factors into account, it becomes and apples-to-oranges comparison.

There have been mass shootings in many other modernized Western nations, most recently a terrible one in Norway, for instance. Yes, it is more frequent here.... why? That's a complex question with a complex answer, in which many factors are at work: our societal glorification of violence and violent entertainment, our "machismo", our stimatization of mental illness and lack of resources to treat same, our huge and very diverse population (we have states more populous than most European nations, and typically far more diverse culturally and ethnically), the specific pressures and stresses to which we subject ourselves (ie most European nations have a slower-paced lifestyle where they are more casual about deadlines, whereas being 5minutes late for work in the US can get you fired, as a minor example), our cultural heritage as a nation founded by revolution and expanded through conquest of the Native-occupied frontier.... the list could go on and on.

There are no simple or one-dimensional solutions to psycho rampages.

I certainly agree with your list of contributing factors which make this problem more evident in the USA than in most other nations. I have a honest question for you in addition to those things you listed, would we not also have to list gun culture and availability as part of those cultural factors?

I agree 100% that we have a culture that glorifies violence in media and entertainment - and the use of guns are a big part of that. So don't we have to include the gun culture and its allure as part of our cultural differences which contribute to the problem itself?
 
I think the problem is that the decent lifestyle that the wage provided in the 50's and 60's is no longer considered a decent lifestyle. It is very much perception. A perception that because all these new products come out, that if you can't afford one you are somehow a victim of those who can.


Sure, there's that, to some degree. What is the purpose of marketing? "To create a need". Actually to create a PERCEPTION of need.


But some things really do become "needs" based on cultural norms. For instance, good Internet access. In 1960, if you wanted a job you checked the Want-Ads and asked around, and went to apply in person. Today most jobs are advertised online, many companies want or require you to fill out an application or send resume online.... heck my own employer no longer gives us check stubs: we have direct deposit and if you want to see the info you'd normally have on a paycheck stub, you HAVE to go ONLINE to the company website to get it. Internet access has become a "need".

Air conditioning... in the 1950's hardly anyone had it, but most buildings were BUILT with that in mind and had better air circulation mechanics for the "chimney effect" (hot air rises) and better outside ventilation. Modern housing is built with AC in mind and made nearly "airtight" to minimize losses of central heat&air, and a lack of AC makes for a mighty hot house.... and if you live in the South and have no AC, you're not going to have much company wanting to hang out at your house in July and August. :mrgreen:
 
Ineffective govment and law check.
Poverty check.
Violent Factionalism check. (Gangs) (Also depends on your definition of violent factionalism)

Yet our murder rate is far lower.

here is the intentional murder rate around the world

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you look at the most recent figures for the 2010's, you will see that the USA is listed at 4.8. That is higher than comparable nations such as Canada( three times higher), the United Kingdom (almost four times higher) and a whole host of European nations who are far behind even the UK - Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, germany, Spain and Australia. Other than Canada, the nation that I find to be most like the USA in terms of urban/rural and manufacturing and economy is Japan and they have a rate of 0.34 which is a tenth of what ours is.
 
all hate groups are dangerous

armed ones are more dangerous.

ones that have a history of violence & murder are more danngerous.

and as we all know, many of the groups that you consider to be "hate groups", are none of the sort.
 
armed ones are more dangerous.

ones that have a history of violence & murder are more danngerous.

and as we all know, many of the groups that you consider to be "hate groups", are of the sort.

thats not true at all. you only consider white groups hate groups. just because you are blind to groups of hate beyond that doesnt make it not so.
 
are you able to explain how are like usual are you just spewing garbage statements. you can look at the numbers. we are one of the most violent countries in the world, and we are one of the most culturally diverse. I havent looked up the numbers exactlly but for countries not at war i bet we are the most violent in the world. and i am pretty sure we are the most culturally diverse. there is more anger and hate in this country than any where else

I believe Canada is actually the most multicultural country in the world and again our crime rate is lower.
 
I certainly agree with your list of contributing factors which make this problem more evident in the USA than in most other nations. I have a honest question for you in addition to those things you listed, would we not also have to list gun culture and availability as part of those cultural factors?

I agree 100% that we have a culture that glorifies violence in media and entertainment - and the use of guns are a big part of that. So don't we have to include the gun culture and its allure as part of our cultural differences which contribute to the problem itself?

Perhaps. I would again point out that 99.98% of privately owned firearms are NEVER used in a crime as a counterpoint, however. This means, mathmatically, that only 0.02% (or less) of our "gun availability" is part of the problem.

As for the "gun culture".... again I think this question is a complex one that does not have a simple one-liner answer. I don't think that serious gun owners, people who actually know their weapons and hunt or shoot a lot, are part of the problem. They are typically throughly aware of the danger factors inherent in firearms, and know from hunting and shooting what a hollowpoint round does to vulnerable flesh, and have no illusions about shooting people as a thing of "glory". More like bloody mess. I had to shoot an aggressive possum IN my house a few months ago, and my son and I had to clean up the bloody mess on the floor afterwards.... quite an education in de-glorifying shooting living creatures.

A certain sort of "Casual" gun owner, and those who possess firearms as part of "thug culture" or out of movie-and-video-game fantasies about "how cool it would be to kill someone" (like the pair of teenage "sniper"-wannabees we had here in my state a couple weeks ago) are where the "gun culture glorification" problem really lies. Here is where you have most of the people who do not respect or understand their weapons, or what it is like to use them, or the enormity of taking life with them. This subculture is where you most often find people who fail to properly and safely store their firearms, or get drunk and accidently shoot Granny, or have unrealistic fantasies about how badass their going to look waving a gun at their asshole neighbor. This sub-set is a minority, but they get a lot of media attention because they're loud and cause lots of problems.

I dislike movies where the hero fires his gun and the bad guy grabs his chest, where there is mysteriously no visible wound, and falls instantly dead.... then the girl comes and stands by his side while he stares into the camera looking manly and the movie ends right there. It is unrealistic in so many ways. When people get shot they tend to bleed, scream, thrash around, and suffer quite a bit before they die in most cases. The hero is probably going to be taken into custody and questioned by the police, and may have to spend a lot of money on lawyers and several months or years in and out of courtrooms getting cleared of all charges in the case, in many jurisdictions.

Then you have movies, music and video games glorifying "thug life".... Grand Theft Auto jumps to mind, as do a lot of rap songs and rapsploitation movies like "Tupoc". If they showed the real consequences of thug life... broken families, broken-hearted mothers, abandoned children, monotonous years in prison, or an ugly early death by violence or drug overdose, instead of glorifying it we might have a little less crime.

If they showed more movies with truly realistic features like that, I think it would put a serious crimp in the unrealistic fantasies of thug-wannabees, Walter Mitty's and so on.

But serious gun owners are typically not a part of the problem.
 
here is the intentional murder rate around the world

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you look at the most recent figures for the 2010's, you will see that the USA is listed at 4.8. That is higher than comparable nations such as Canada( three times higher), the United Kingdom (almost four times higher) and a whole host of European nations who are far behind even the UK - Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, germany, Spain and Australia. Other than Canada, the nation that I find to be most like the USA in terms of urban/rural and manufacturing and economy is Japan and they have a rate of 0.34 which is a tenth of what ours is.


You should also note that there are a number of nations that have rates as high as 34.... several times our rate. Some of them have strict gun control laws.

Japan, Canada, the UK.... different cultures with different norms. Again, the UK is very violent, statistically 4x as violent as the US.... they just don't kill each other as often, and didn't even when they had hardly any gun control.
 
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