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Thread: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    No offense but I think you're projecting your own bias onto these discussions to which you refer. You view guns as a negative, so you view discussions about guns in that same light.

    If I were to buy, let's say, a .45 Kimber autopistol with a 5" barrel, I'd probably do some bragging... it is a finely made firearm, bloody expensive, and extremely good for its purposes. Somebody like me, with an ordinary working man income, would have to save up quite a while to buy such a fine firearm, so yeah I'd be proud of my purchase. I might even make some comment about how .45 in a 5" barrel has some of the best stopping-power stats for any handgun.

    Does that mean I'm looking forward to/fantasizing about the "glorious day" when I get the chance to shoot a PERSON with it? Hell no. I'm not stupid, nor am I some bloodthirsty barbarian. I hope and pray I never find it necessary to shoot a human being; I don't enjoy causing people pain or taking human life, and I know full well I will have to answer to the legal system and that even if I am fully cleared the process will not be "fun".

    I think you fail to distinguish between a person being glad they have a finely-made and effective firearm available for self-defense if they need it, and someone glorifying the taking of human life.


    Now let me make an admission here. I don't have much sympathy for violent criminals who engage in acts that could easily result in the deaths of innocents. I don't have a problem with armed citizens, acting in proper and lawful self-defense, killing armed robbers and suchlike. I've said so before and I stand by what I said. Perhaps sometimes I engaged in statements that seemed callous, like "one less scumbag is fine with me". Yup, I've said that.

    Now if you want to know my deepest thoughts and feelings on the matter, they're a little more nuanced. I've actually known a lot of criminals; in many cases I even found them likeable or felt a certain sympathy for them, if you ignore what they do... many come from really bad backgrounds and I often think it is a shame that their lives have ended up so fracked up.

    But my empathy for them comes to an end when they callously and uncaringly threaten the lives of innocent people. That's the "sheepdog" in me if you like; the sense that the wolves in human form need to be put down and their threat removed from the human herd. Some part of me may be saying "it is a shame this young man's life came to this, that he forced someone to put an end to him", but in the main I see it as the removal of a wolf from the fold.


    I will admit that I have trouble understanding the mindset of someone who views guns entirely as a negative.... but I think it is plain that you don't understand the mindset of people like me very well either.
    People who do not collect guns or use them as a hobby are often perplexed by the those who do for one simple inescapable fact: it is a tool designed for death. Gunners see the fine craft work, attention to detail and the uncanny natural wrap of a well designed grip. To others, they are funeral makers in a tuxedo.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Furiounova View Post
    People who do not collect guns or use them as a hobby are often perplexed by the those who do for one simple inescapable fact: it is a tool designed for death.
    Wrong. It is designed to fire a projectile, what the target is depends upon the intention of the shooter. This is a fallacy that I have seen enough times, it's also a long defeated talking point, I have seen it probably about 200 times just at this forum alone. Let this fallacy RIP will ya?
    Gunners see the fine craft work, attention to detail and the uncanny natural wrap of a well designed grip. To others, they are funeral makers in a tuxedo.
    Considering those who see it as a "funeral maker" tend to have less knowledge of the subject, their perception means nothing to me.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    Guns are not really the issue, are they?

    Some people like nervous chicken hearted Barneys probably shoudn't carry and can't be taught judgment and restraint. People who are marginally sane or taking lots of medication probably shouldn't carry.

    Those who drink and drug.. probably shouldn't carry.

    Of course we don't want those with criminal records to carry.. or those with domestic violence records.

    Uhhhh.. If you carry, you take on a huge responsibility.............
    Bold: If someone has a criminal record and are not safe enough to have their full rights (including the right to own a gun) then perhaps they shouldn't have been let out? Continueal punishment past the initial set punishment is not what any civilized society should aim for.
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Your assessment is both overly broad and far too simplistic. I used to carry a firearm until I stopped. In certain areas a firearm is is necessary, such as the wilderness where human population is low. In a crowded metropolitan area a firearm is can be a danger, especially when law enforcement is readily available. Moreover, there are two type of people that should not carry at all; those who are crazy and those who act irresponsibly. I do not wish to make gun control an issue, but, when firearms are made available too easily the crazy and irresponsible ones seem to the ones who are committing heinous acts with these weapons.

    I never heard of a crazed killer ask someone if they were "on the right" or "on the left" before shooting them. Perhaps political perspectives are a non issue here and public safety is the issue at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    This is kind of a dumb analogy. For most people a car represents essential transportation. Society would be radically changed if cars were restricted. Guns ... not so much.

    OTOH, you're required to have a license to drive a car, and your care registration and license must be periodically renewed....

    Here's another statistic: at least since 1945, more people are killed by cars every year than nuclear bombs. Therefore it's silly to restrict nuclear bombs.
    Adam what are you talking about? Cars were not a part of my discussion. I addressed the validity of TurtleDude's argument.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Bold: If someone has a criminal record and are not safe enough to have their full rights (including the right to own a gun) then perhaps they shouldn't have been let out? Continueal punishment past the initial set punishment is not what any civilized society should aim for.
    I think there could be a probationary standard that could please both sides. I say if someone stays clean for five years let them apply for clemency automatically, and if they are clean for ten then full clemency should be automatic. The reason I think there should be some time is just simple recidivism, those odds go down significantly within the five to ten year range.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Furiounova View Post
    People who do not collect guns or use them as a hobby are often perplexed by the those who do for one simple inescapable fact: it is a tool designed for death. Gunners see the fine craft work, attention to detail and the uncanny natural wrap of a well designed grip. To others, they are funeral makers in a tuxedo.

    Yeah, I get that... well said, btw... but I suppose I (and others like me) are just not as obsessive about the "death" aspect. Possibly because we have no intention of killing anyone if it can possibly be avoided.

    I also have something of a passion for edged weapons, and own a couple of swords and several combat knives. These are really more "collectable" items than anything I have any anticipation of ever USING, other than practicing with them. I admire the workmanship, the lines and finish, the handle material and carving, the functional utility combined with beautiful craftsmanship. Yes, ultimately these weapons were designed to carve the guts out of another human being, and could be used for that purpose, but that is not my focus.

    Guns are a little different, since I actually use them for self-defense, hunting and target shooting. I am more concerned with functionality and less with collect-ability. Still, I don't obsess over their lethal purpose.

    Maybe I'm just less freaked-out about mortality in general? I don't know. Obviously there's a wide gulf in mindset here though.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    It is time for me and my son to go see the new Batman movie.


    I'll post later and let you know we made it back alive and well.


    (pardon my sense of gallows humor, the media is just in such a frenzy of stupidity that it strikes me as a bit laughable.)

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Yeah, I get that... well said, btw... but I suppose I (and others like me) are just not as obsessive about the "death" aspect. Possibly because we have no intention of killing anyone if it can possibly be avoided.

    I also have something of a passion for edged weapons, and own a couple of swords and several combat knives. These are really more "collectable" items than anything I have any anticipation of ever USING, other than practicing with them. I admire the workmanship, the lines and finish, the handle material and carving, the functional utility combined with beautiful craftsmanship. Yes, ultimately these weapons were designed to carve the guts out of another human being, and could be used for that purpose, but that is not my focus.

    Guns are a little different, since I actually use them for self-defense, hunting and target shooting. I am more concerned with functionality and less with collect-ability. Still, I don't obsess over their lethal purpose.

    Maybe I'm just less freaked-out about mortality in general? I don't know. Obviously there's a wide gulf in mindset here though.
    I know you have extensive M.A. training Goshin including weaponry. One little point here, the Bushido code pertained to both the sword crafter and the sword user, the object wasn't to make a sword based on lethality, but rather to cut well. It did follow of course that cutting well added to the weapons lethality. Then again I must concede that the Bushido code was region specific and different Asian nations had different weapons and tactical moral standards.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Wrong. It is designed to fire a projectile, what the target is depends upon the intention of the shooter. This is a fallacy that I have seen enough times, it's also a long defeated talking point, I have seen it probably about 200 times just at this forum alone. Let this fallacy RIP will ya? Considering those who see it as a "funeral maker" tend to have less knowledge of the subject, their perception means nothing to me.
    So you are saying when they were designed the goal was simply to shoot a projectile? That's it? That is an example of how gunners use intellectual dishonesty.

    You know absolutely nothing about my experience with guns and it is irrelevant to the discussion.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by GJ Flash View Post
    Why? Because they place bounties on the heads of innocent American citizens based on race? Because they intimidate voters at polling places? With clubs, no less? Because they get on public radio and vow to hunt down and kill people with different skin color that theirs, bury them, dig them up, and then kill them again?

    Or is it because they do those things with the full blessing and consent of our "justice" department?

    Don't get me wrong, I have a great deal of disgust for most groups that base their existence on race. We, as the most diverse society ever, need to move beyond that. We can start by recognizing this sort of race (and religion)-based hypocrisy whenever it rears its ugly head.

    Good Morning America erroneously (and quickly and cheerfully) tried to tie this tragedy to the Tea Party. No one outside of (or sympathetic to) the Tea Party seemed to be too upset over that. Why? If ABC had immediately tried to make the connection to this crime and Muslims, would there have been outrage? You betcha, and rightfully so.

    We, as a society, need to start recognizing the divisions placed amongst us, regardless of the color/creed/religion/sex of the source. And then we need to attack it. And kill it. And dig it up and kill it again. So to speak. Our society could make great leaps forward if we, as a society, universally decried the forces that attempt to divide us.
    excellent post. might even steal it for my next sig.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


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