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Thread: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

  1. #971
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    How then do we prevent someone like the Colorado shooter from buy a gun legally? Had he been commited involuntarily? Not that I know of. Was he heavily medicated and did his shrink consider him potentially dangerous? I don't know. How do we accomplish this, denying guns to the unstable without unreasonably restricting the law-abiding? I have yet to hear a good answer to this question.










    Well, what would you have of us? Those of us, responsible and sane gun owners, who like and enjoy firearms, who hunt and target shoot and keep weapons for self-defense... shall we be ashamed of our weapons? Shall we hide them and take no pride in the fine rifle we spent months saving up money to buy? Shall we treat our passion as a perversion and hide it? Consider ourselves social pariahs? Refrain from discussing firearms in polite company, as if it were a taboo subject? Act as if there were something wrong with it?

    If that is what you are suggesting, I find the notion as utterly alien as treating a passion for fast cars like a perversion, and must reject it completely.

    If that isn't what you wish, what DO you want us to do? What is your solution?
    I look forward to the Haymarket answer. I tried, in an ealier post to get it, but failed to get a reply.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  2. #972
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I think you are overstating it, but you do have a point. When I was a kid, "courtesy" was very very important in social settings; now it has been replaced by "attitude". Rudeness is mistaken for strength, arrogance for ability, selfishness for ambition, and pride no longer needs to be based on actual accomplishments. Sometimes our society does seem like a "death of a thousand tiny cuts" and there are plenty of opportunities for haters to find an excuse for their hatred.

    Even so, there are still lots of good people out there. They just seem to be few because the bad ones are so loud and so visible.
    I think it's because we've removed the consequences from the bad ones. Take "Jersey Shore" for example, they wouldn't have stayed douchey like that into their twenties in the south during even the '80s or '90s because our law enforcement would look the other way if these jackasses got "tuned up" by someone who didn't like their braying, hell they would have been arrested after getting the **** kicked out of them for disorderly conduct, now, the people who would have corrected that life fail would get assault and battery and the DTP charge would be ignored. The loudest have no corrective mechanism anymore and they of course get the most attention because they make the most noise.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #973
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I think it's because we've removed the consequences from the bad ones.
    It's been 45 years of insisting that no one ever be made to feel ashamed of themselves. Ever.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps the difference is one of maturity and considering everything in its proper place and worth. I will make no bones about it Goshin - when I read and hear some guys going on and on and on about guns - and you can find it here in plenty of threads - it sounds just like some 16 year old boy bragging about the size and rigidity of his own erection. It just reeks of everything negative not to say rather immature. Does that sort of "look at my pin-up pic of my latest weapon" even exist in European nations where guns are considered essential to have in the home?

    Even if those folks do not abuse firearms - and I have already stated that for the most part they do not - I do think they contribute to the worship of the gun as part of American culture. And that is part of the problem.

    No offense but I think you're projecting your own bias onto these discussions to which you refer. You view guns as a negative, so you view discussions about guns in that same light.

    If I were to buy, let's say, a .45 Kimber autopistol with a 5" barrel, I'd probably do some bragging... it is a finely made firearm, bloody expensive, and extremely good for its purposes. Somebody like me, with an ordinary working man income, would have to save up quite a while to buy such a fine firearm, so yeah I'd be proud of my purchase. I might even make some comment about how .45 in a 5" barrel has some of the best stopping-power stats for any handgun.

    Does that mean I'm looking forward to/fantasizing about the "glorious day" when I get the chance to shoot a PERSON with it? Hell no. I'm not stupid, nor am I some bloodthirsty barbarian. I hope and pray I never find it necessary to shoot a human being; I don't enjoy causing people pain or taking human life, and I know full well I will have to answer to the legal system and that even if I am fully cleared the process will not be "fun".

    I think you fail to distinguish between a person being glad they have a finely-made and effective firearm available for self-defense if they need it, and someone glorifying the taking of human life.


    Now let me make an admission here. I don't have much sympathy for violent criminals who engage in acts that could easily result in the deaths of innocents. I don't have a problem with armed citizens, acting in proper and lawful self-defense, killing armed robbers and suchlike. I've said so before and I stand by what I said. Perhaps sometimes I engaged in statements that seemed callous, like "one less scumbag is fine with me". Yup, I've said that.

    Now if you want to know my deepest thoughts and feelings on the matter, they're a little more nuanced. I've actually known a lot of criminals; in many cases I even found them likeable or felt a certain sympathy for them, if you ignore what they do... many come from really bad backgrounds and I often think it is a shame that their lives have ended up so fracked up.

    But my empathy for them comes to an end when they callously and uncaringly threaten the lives of innocent people. That's the "sheepdog" in me if you like; the sense that the wolves in human form need to be put down and their threat removed from the human herd. Some part of me may be saying "it is a shame this young man's life came to this, that he forced someone to put an end to him", but in the main I see it as the removal of a wolf from the fold.


    I will admit that I have trouble understanding the mindset of someone who views guns entirely as a negative.... but I think it is plain that you don't understand the mindset of people like me very well either.
    Last edited by Goshin; 07-21-12 at 04:10 PM.

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps the difference is one of maturity and considering everything in its proper place and worth. I will make no bones about it Goshin - when I read and hear some guys going on and on and on about guns - and you can find it here in plenty of threads - it sounds just like some 16 year old boy bragging about the size and rigidity of his own erection. It just reeks of everything negative not to say rather immature. Does that sort of "look at my pin-up pic of my latest weapon" even exist in European nations where guns are considered essential to have in the home?

    Even if those folks do not abuse firearms - and I have already stated that for the most part they do not - I do think they contribute to the worship of the gun as part of American culture. And that is part of the problem.

    By the way, your reply didn't include any specific proposals for dealing with these things you've defined as problems. That doesn't surprise me, as I noted that these issues are difficult and finding workable solutions for them would be a bitch.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Well said goshin...but good paying bluecollar jobs existed till the begining of the 80s...then the outsourcing began in earnest
    There isnt one iota of doubt that outsourcing screwed american workers and made only the very rich much richer at the working class' expense.
    Actually before that, high paying industrial laborer started dying out at the end of the Ford administration around '75/'76, Carter didn't help much by going on a regulatory blitzkrieg, and that sector seemed to be forever lost to China.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Actually before that, high paying industrial laborer started dying out at the end of the Ford administration around '75/'76, Carter didn't help much by going on a regulatory blitzkrieg, and that sector seemed to be forever lost to China.
    It seemed to start in the 70s, here in the South as textile mills began to vanish... but I'll grant you it went into hyperdrive somewhere in the late 80s or early 90s.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Crosscheck View Post
    I think it is nearly impossible to stop someone from doing a suicide type attack. But people need to and I believe are becoming more reactive.

    We can't be sheep and hope the wolf leaves alone. As soon as some SOB starts wrecking havoc then everyone has to attack him. Just try standing up in an airline and start spouting off some crap and I will guarantee you at least two sets of hands are going to pull your ass down. That is the way you have to combat these scum. Finally when they are stopped they need to have the imprint of someone's boot up their rectum.
    Absolutely, I don't mean stop them in the preventative sense, it's impossible. What I mean by stop them is to physically disable their attempt to create a mass murder in the act and so visibly that the next person who wants to try and has any sanity left will stop and say "Woah, they aren't playing anymore, look what they did to that other guy!".
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It's been 45 years of insisting that no one ever be made to feel ashamed of themselves. Ever.
    Perfect for instance: Even 30-40 years ago you had better be pretty sure of yourself to approach a woman who enters a place with a man, nowadays I have actually had these little thug wannabes come up to the woman I was dating asking if they wanted to trade up. What I would have done to those little punks would be a felony today but the police would have issued no charges back then and probably looked away for a second so I could get one parting shot.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It seemed to start in the 70s, here in the South as textile mills began to vanish... but I'll grant you it went into hyperdrive somewhere in the late 80s or early 90s.
    I think the Chinese market was tested and proven at that point, it wasn't that their goods were superior, they weren't, but they were cheap and could replace many of the superior American products sufficiently to reduce cost. The genie was out of the bottle and we were too far in to reverse course.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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