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Thread: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    Yea that makes sense. Not.
    are you gonna explain why or just make useless drive-bys?

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the problem is we on the right understand the limits of a free society and the fact that nuts will always be able to kill while some on the left want to stop honest people from being able to defend themselves and that is why an "honest" debate is often not possible because the gun restrictionists are dishonest as to their true motivations
    To characterize like that - by making the extremes the only participants and models in the discussion is stacking the deck against any honest discussion or national discourse.

    There are plenty of people like myself who believe that the Second Amendment is fine and that guns overall save more lives and protect more people than they take. There are plenty of people in the middle like myself who respect the rights of fun collectors and sportsman and hunters in their use of guns. There are plenty of people like me who think it is very reasonable and completely justified for a person to have a firearm in their home or business for personal and family protection.

    But I suspect that many of us also do NOT want to live in an armed society where large numbers of people are openly carrying the latest and greatest firepower. We do NOT want anybody in the country to have weapons simply because someday somehow someway they just may have to use those weapons and match firepower with a new Adolf Hitler who has taken over the US government.

    We need to badly have this national discussion.

    I was born in 1949 - a very long time ago. Once upon a time when things like this happened there was the a national revulsion about the event itself. And then there was a discussion about our society and its various components that contributed to such horrorific events. And that included guns and their proliferation in the society. We discussed these things as people in the media and together and what we can or should or might do about these things.

    The right has succeeded in taking that off the table. It is now verboten. And if anyone wants to have that discussion we get the usual reaction that is very very evident here where people excoriate and attack anyone who brings it up for "using this" at an inappropriate time.

    What exactly is an appropriate time?

    We know for the past incidents that when the stories leave the front pages and the furor dies down, so does interest in the topic. Which is what I think the right desires and they know damn well what they are doing in this feigned "how dare you talk about this at this time of tragedy" BS that we see.

    When are we going to not let the extremes define this issue for the great mass of the American people?
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The "Wild West" wasn't nearly as wild (in terms of crime) as many people mistakenly think it was.


    Goshin - you are a bright person who is reasonable. Do you understand my point or do you want to argue about murder statistics on 130 years ago in the West?
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    To characterize like that - by making the extremes the only participants and models in the discussion is stacking the deck against any honest discussion or national discourse.

    There are plenty of people like myself who believe that the Second Amendment is fine and that guns overall save more lives and protect more people than they take. There are plenty of people in the middle like myself who respect the rights of fun collectors and sportsman and hunters in their use of guns. There are plenty of people like me who think it is very reasonable and completely justified for a person to have a firearm in their home or business for personal and family protection.

    But I suspect that many of us also do NOT want to live in an armed society where large numbers of people are openly carrying the latest and greatest firepower. We do NOT want anybody in the country to have weapons simply because someday somehow someway they just may have to use those weapons and match firepower with a new Adolf Hitler who has taken over the US government.

    We need to badly have this national discussion.

    I was born in 1949 - a very long time ago. Once upon a time when things like this happened there was the a national revulsion about the event itself. And then there was a discussion about our society and its various components that contributed to such horrorific events. And that included guns and their proliferation in the society. We discussed these things as people in the media and together and what we can or should or might do about these things.

    The right has succeeded in taking that off the table. It is now verboten. And if anyone wants to have that discussion we get the usual reaction that is very very evident here where people excoriate and attack anyone who brings it up for "using this" at an inappropriate time.

    What exactly is an appropriate time?

    We know for the past incidents that when the stories leave the front pages and the furor dies down, so does interest in the topic. Which is what I think the right desires and they know damn well what they are doing in this feigned "how dare you talk about this at this time of tragedy" BS that we see.

    When are we going to not let the extremes define this issue for the great mass of the American people?
    Unless and until our justice system is able to get illegal guns off the street -- stop drive-bys that kill more people in a typical weekend than these horrific incidents kill in a year -- you'll never convince me that more laws will work. This is one of the prices we pay for a free society -- that nutz happen and people die.

    Give me a gun, let me carry it, and I will shoot them. Or die trying.

    (Oh, yes, I know it sounds like bravado. But really? My personal instincts tell me (though I've never been in such a situation) that there are good reasons to die. That theater incident? That would have been one of them. And I know damned well I'm not alone.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    To characterize like that - by making the extremes the only participants and models in the discussion is stacking the deck against any honest discussion or national discourse.

    There are plenty of people like myself who believe that the Second Amendment is fine and that guns overall save more lives and protect more people than they take. There are plenty of people in the middle like myself who respect the rights of fun collectors and sportsman and hunters in their use of guns. There are plenty of people like me who think it is very reasonable and completely justified for a person to have a firearm in their home or business for personal and family protection.

    But I suspect that many of us also do NOT want to live in an armed society where large numbers of people are openly carrying the latest and greatest firepower. We do NOT want anybody in the country to have weapons simply because someday somehow someway they just may have to use those weapons and match firepower with a new Adolf Hitler who has taken over the US government.

    We need to badly have this national discussion.

    I was born in 1949 - a very long time ago. Once upon a time when things like this happened there was the a national revulsion about the event itself. And then there was a discussion about our society and its various components that contributed to such horrorific events. And that included guns and their proliferation in the society. We discussed these things as people in the media and together and what we can or should or might do about these things.

    The right has succeeded in taking that off the table. It is now verboten. And if anyone wants to have that discussion we get the usual reaction that is very very evident here where people excoriate and attack anyone who brings it up for "using this" at an inappropriate time.

    What exactly is an appropriate time?

    We know for the past incidents that when the stories leave the front pages and the furor dies down, so does interest in the topic. Which is what I think the right desires and they know damn well what they are doing in this feigned "how dare you talk about this at this time of tragedy" BS that we see.

    When are we going to not let the extremes define this issue for the great mass of the American people?
    That's a freaking awesome position

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Goshin - you are a bright person who is reasonable. Do you understand my point or do you want to argue about murder statistics on 130 years ago in the West?
    Okay, let's talk about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket
    Is there not some place in the middle where people can advocate for responsible gun ownership but yet have reasonable laws which protect society from turning into Deadwood?

    The problem lies in defining exactly where that "place in the middle" is.

    Personally I think we're pretty much there. Crime and violence in general are way down from a peak in the 1970s, and accidental gun deaths are WAY down from a peak in the 70s.

    At the same time, there are more guns in private hands than ever before. 41 states have some version of easy-to-get "shall issue" concealed carry permits; several states allow either open or concealed carry or both without permit; none of these changes from the 70's have resulted in the "bloodbath" predicted by detractors.

    Now I've said more than once that I'd be perfectly okay with adding "was committed involuntarily to a mental institution" and "is heavily medicated to keep him from being dangerous" to NICS. We'd have to determine the exact mechanism by which this is accomplished (due to medical confidentiality issues and where to draw the line) but in general I think it is a good idea because it restricts the dangerous individual, not the whole population.

    The thing is though, that while we ARE much safer from violent crime today than 50 years ago, you will still have incidents like this one from time to time, and it is highly improbable that any laws will prevent psychos from going psycho.



    The year 2010 was overall the safest year in almost forty years. The recent overall decrease has reflected upon all significant types of crime, with all violent and property crimes having decreased and reached an all-time low. The homicide rate in particular has decreased 51% between its record high point in 1991 and 2010.
    ......

    Despite the recent stagnation of the homicide rate, however, property and violent crimes overall have continued to decrease, though at a considerably slower pace than in the 1990s.[9] Overall, the crime rate in the U.S. was the same in 2009 as in 1968, with the homicide rate being roughly the same as in 1964
    Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In a nation of around 330 million people, you will occasionally have some nut do something spectacularly tragic. Despite these relatively rare and dramatic incidents, overall we're a lot safer than we've been in many other times in history.


    On the whole I'd say we're doing pretty well and don't need to make any major changes in gun laws.... maybe a small tweak as I mentioned above, but at the same time noting that this tweak isn't likely to stop psycho rampages like this unfortunate incident at the Batman premiere.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Furiounova View Post
    That's a freaking awesome position
    That's called intelligent discussion. No LOL's -- no ROFLOL's -- no attacking the poster. Haymarket's good at that. Oh, ooookay, not all the time; but when he puts his mind to it, he's awesome.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Crimes like this are when I ask "who in their right mind would spend thousands of dollars and waste time in trials on this crap?". It should take about 5 minutes to strap this guy on a guillotine. There are theorems where a mathematician writes "Trivial." for the proof of the theorem. Certain instances of crimes should be handled similarly.
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    I think so too.. and I think he was ASKED to leave school because he was so creepy and getting worse.
    No evidence yet to support this. All I've read is that he was quiet and not doing well academically, that the doctoral program was thinking about providing him with remedial help, and that Holmes had dropped out on his own.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    How would you rate our military performance in Afghanistan and Iraq?
    I'd rate it pretty good, given the fact that we're using only a fraction of our power half way around the world, where the opposition can escape across the border into Pakistan, and where we have language and cultural barriers, and we're an invading force, and we have to be very careful not to kill civilians, and where they make use of suicide attacks, etc.

    IOW, not a great analogy.

    How would the Libyan rebels have done without our air support and NATO assistance?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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