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Thread: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    The obvious and heavily used counter argument to this idea is that, with more stringent gun laws, somehow we would end up with fewer guns, and by the laws of supply, fewer guns = harder to acquire.

    Meaning, more stringent gun laws results in fewer guns in circulation, which would make it harder to criminals to come accross them using various illegal methods.
    Oh absolutely. More stringent gun laws are something I think would reduce how many criminals have guns by SOME degree. That alone is by no means a reason to do it because it's a very narrow focused way of judging based on information only based on information that helps that sides argument. The correct question would be to weigh that against the amount of law abiding citizens who would have guns removed from their hands that would use them in instances of self-dense, etc. To me, the amount of criminals that would be less likely to have guns in their hands is lower and not worth the trade off to the amount of law abiding citizens who would potentially use guns for legitimate positive reasons having it taken from their hands.

    And that's just about gun owners that utilize them for protected purposes. That doesn't even take into account those who are simply exercising their constitutional freedoms in a perfectly legal manner whose liberty we wish to remove in the name of security.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Um. No.

    I have no problem that we agree the use would increase.

    We don't agree with the continuing statements you made
    Yeah - I guess its kind of baseless for me to suggest that if the market drastically increases for narcotics that more people might develop medical problems and various social pathologies that come with narcotic usage. I should have realized that those new LEGAL narcotics will be absent of such negative factors. I am sure the ads on TV will tell us just how great they really are.

    Silly me.
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And if so...then the question must be asked...how to keep people LIKE him, from causing things like this?

    Also, if he was simply an idiopathic total nut case...why choose now? Why not snap in school, as seems to be the popular choice with idiopathic nut cases?

    The only way to really begin to prevent this sort of ****, it to REALLY understand it, and the people behind it. The better we understand something, the better we can predict something, the better we can prevent something.

    Sans guns, this kid would have simply found another way to kill.

    Why?
    I don't know. This case could be used as a thesis for a PhD in psycology, then maybe we'd have an idea what caused him to do what he did.

    or not. It's not like psycology is an exact science.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Furiounova View Post
    The study you cited claims accessibility is a "key" factor for the high rates and the fallacy is not mitigated by the referenced age group.
    No firearm, no injury by firearm. It really is that simple.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    It's amazing that people who recognize the futility of gun control laws don't apply that same reasoning to undocumented immigration laws, i. e. "we need stronger border laws! If we just make more laws, all the undocumented workers will leave. Doesn't matter that demand exists."

    Become Libertarian: oppose all gun laws, drug laws, and immigration laws. Thank you
    Last edited by solletica; 07-22-12 at 01:53 PM.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yeah - I guess its kind of baseless for me to suggest that if the market drastically increases for narcotics that more people might develop medical problems and various social pathologies that come with narcotic usage. I should have realized that those new LEGAL narcotics will be absent of such negative factors. I am sure the ads on TV will tell us just how great they really are.

    Silly me.
    No, the only silly thing is that you didn't bother to read what I stated and decided to run off on a strawman like this.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You weren't. You were agreeing with your point that you projected onto mine. I didn't make any suggestion in my post that problems or misery would arise. I only suggested that more individuals would likely use them because those who wouldn't break the law previously would have the opportunity to use it.

    So taking it back to the drug/gun analogy. Yeah, gun's being legal allows more people to have them. Primarily, individuals who wouldn't have them if they were made illegal because 1) They are illegal or 2) The punishment is too severe [and whatever that punishment is, it's not as severe as murder or assault with a deadly weapon]. Are there likely a handful that don't fall in that category? Sure. But not enough to warrant punishing the vast majority.
    The relevant question is whether society wants to punish the suppliers of a good or its consumers. Whenever something is made illegal or more illegal, only the consumers of that good are punished, while the supplier reaps more profits, taking advantage of the artificially reduced supply stemming from that good being illegal. Drug cartels make billions precisely because of this artificial reduction in supply stemming of anti-drug laws; it secures them a monopoly (i. e. a cartel) that otherwise wouldn't exist.

    The same thing would happen to guns. If all guns were banned in the US, guns would still be available (albeit illegally) and cost a whole lot more. Meanwhile, small time legit gun dealers would be run out of business, and illegal gun traffickers would become rich kingpins.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No, the only silly thing is that you didn't bother to read what I stated and decided to run off on a strawman like this.
    There was no strawman.
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    An argument can be made it wouldn't be exceedingly effective against those who perpetrate the acts that led to you wanting more stringent gun laws...namely, those taking actions like this.

    Killing people like this is illegal, so the individual has no issue breaking the law. Killing people like this has a much harsher penalty then would ever be put into place for owning a gun, so the individual isn't exactly deterred by the threat of penalty.

    The large majority of individuals you're going to be effective in taking guns out of their hands in terms of stringent gun laws are those who want to adhere to the law or those who are deterred by relatively minor to moderate legal punishment.
    I'm thinking more in terms of dissuading the people from *selling* things like high-capacity magazines. Crazy people are going to do what crazy people do. But we can limit what rational and at least semi-law-abiding people supply them and thus possibly reduce the damage they inflict.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    The relevant question is whether society wants to punish the suppliers of a good or its consumers. Whenever something is made illegal or more illegal, only the consumers of that good are punished, while the supplier reaps more profits, taking advantage of the artificially reduced supply stemming from that good being illegal. Drug cartels make billions precisely because of this artificial reduction in supply stemming of anti-drug laws; it secures them a monopoly (i. e. a cartel) that otherwise wouldn't exist.

    The same thing would happen to guns. If all guns were banned in the US, guns would still be available (albeit illegally) and cost a whole lot more. Meanwhile, small time legit gun dealers would be run out of business, and illegal gun traffickers would become rich kingpins.
    So does your theory about gun prices soaring but still easily available work in a nation like Japan?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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