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Thread: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I think we'd have more, because right now the only people getting dope, crack, blow, and speed are those who have no issue with breaking the law. If they were legal, those who don't wish to break the law would then have access to them.
    I think that's certainly true. I think you'd also get more people who don't really mind breaking the law but who aren't willing to risk the stiff penalties current law imposes.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I agree. Legalizing such drugs would only increase usage... increase the problems that arise from usage .... and increase the misery that drugs can bring.
    Arguable. The crime that surrounds the illegal drug trade, the questionable choices that are made in an effort to hide drug use due to it's illegality, the psychological impact to being "responsible" when one is already doing something illegal...there's a lot of factors that increase the misery that drugs can bring currently that conceivably could be reduced should they become legal. The question to actually determine the impact would be whether or not the net effect is positive or negative, not just looking at it from one angle which helps ones argument.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Arguable. The crime that surrounds the illegal drug trade, the questionable choices that are made in an effort to hide drug use due to it's illegality, the psychological impact to being "responsible" when one is already doing something illegal...there's a lot of factors that increase the misery that drugs can bring currently that conceivably could be reduced should they become legal. The question to actually determine the impact would be whether or not the net effect is positive or negative, not just looking at it from one angle which helps ones argument.
    Sorry for agreeing with you.
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Arguable. The crime that surrounds the illegal drug trade, the questionable choices that are made in an effort to hide drug use due to it's illegality, the psychological impact to being "responsible" when one is already doing something illegal...there's a lot of factors that increase the misery that drugs can bring currently that conceivably could be reduced should they become legal. The question to actually determine the impact would be whether or not the net effect is positive or negative, not just looking at it from one angle which helps ones argument.
    Yes, I was not trying to make a comprehensive statement on the whether or not drugs should be legal -- just talking about whether laws actually reduce drug use, as it was suggested by TD and others that they do not. The implication being that it would be senseless to pass more stringent gun laws because they would not be effective.
    Last edited by AdamT; 07-22-12 at 01:23 PM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Sorry for agreeing with you.
    You weren't. You were agreeing with your point that you projected onto mine. I didn't make any suggestion in my post that problems or misery would arise. I only suggested that more individuals would likely use them because those who wouldn't break the law previously would have the opportunity to use it.

    So taking it back to the drug/gun analogy. Yeah, gun's being legal allows more people to have them. Primarily, individuals who wouldn't have them if they were made illegal because 1) They are illegal or 2) The punishment is too severe [and whatever that punishment is, it's not as severe as murder or assault with a deadly weapon]. Are there likely a handful that don't fall in that category? Sure. But not enough to warrant punishing the vast majority.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Yes, I was not trying to make a comprehensive statement on the whether or not drugs should be legal -- just talking about whether laws actually reduce drug use, as it was suggested by TD and others that they do not. The implication being that it would be senseless to pass more stringent gun laws because they would not be effective.
    An argument can be made it wouldn't be exceedingly effective against those who perpetrate the acts that led to you wanting more stringent gun laws...namely, those taking actions like this.

    Killing people like this is illegal, so the individual has no issue breaking the law. Killing people like this has a much harsher penalty then would ever be put into place for owning a gun, so the individual isn't exactly deterred by the threat of penalty.

    The large majority of individuals you're going to be effective in taking guns out of their hands in terms of stringent gun laws are those who want to adhere to the law or those who are deterred by relatively minor to moderate legal punishment.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You weren't. You were agreeing with your point that you projected onto mine. I didn't make any suggestion in my post that problems or misery would arise. I only suggested that more individuals would likely use them because those who wouldn't break the law previously would have the opportunity to use it.

    So taking it back to the drug/gun analogy. Yeah, gun's being legal allows more people to have them. Primarily, individuals who wouldn't have them if they were made illegal because 1) They are illegal or 2) The punishment is too severe [and whatever that punishment is, it's not as severe as murder or assault with a deadly weapon]. Are there likely a handful that don't fall in that category? Sure. But not enough to warrant punishing the vast majority.
    sure ... whatever .... okay.....

    would hate to think we agree on something...... the world might stop spinning.
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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    sure ... whatever .... okay.....

    would hate to think we agree on something...... the world might stop spinning.
    Um. No.

    I have no problem that we agree the use would increase.

    We don't agree with the continuing statements you made

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    An argument can be made it wouldn't be exceedingly effective against those who perpetrate the acts that led to you wanting more stringent gun laws...namely, those taking actions like this.

    Killing people like this is illegal, so the individual has no issue breaking the law. Killing people like this has a much harsher penalty then would ever be put into place for owning a gun, so the individual isn't exactly deterred by the threat of penalty.

    The large majority of individuals you're going to be effective in taking guns out of their hands in terms of stringent gun laws are those who want to adhere to the law or those who are deterred by relatively minor to moderate legal punishment.
    The obvious and heavily used counter argument to this idea is that, with more stringent gun laws, somehow we would end up with fewer guns, and by the laws of supply, fewer guns = harder to acquire.

    Meaning, more stringent gun laws results in fewer guns in circulation, which would make it harder to criminals to come accross them using various illegal methods.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver [W:120]

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    My post, which for which you base your opinion, speaks only to "children and youth under age 20 are killed or injured by firearms in the United States". It does not address other means and was not intended to. My post and it's content was to support those that held the view there was a nexus between individual freedoms and public safety as a valid viewpoint.
    The study you cited claims accessibility is a "key" factor for the high rates and the fallacy is not mitigated by the referenced age group.

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