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Thread: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I don't think the President was "downplaying" the success of individual businessmen as he was attempting to pry some bit of acknowledgement from his political opponents that their "our way or the hiway" plaints are simply untrue. Without the entire structure created by both individuals and government, neither would exist yet there are those who argue "government can't do anything". Which is simply untrue.
    In other words the prez is arguing with anarchists. Are anarchists a serious threat to the prez's agenda?

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Obama wasn't saying "business owners didn't build their businesses".

    he was saying that we ALL, together, pitched in to build roads & bridges.

    we ALL pitched in with either tax dollars, management & design of the project, or the actual labor.
    And this is how stupid his comment was. It shows his utter ignorance for what makes a successful business successful.

    Let me put it in terms you might understand. Roads and bridges do not make a company or small business successful. If they did, every single business would be successful, because there is a road in front of virtually every business in America. My business doesn't succeed simply because there is a road outside, or a bridge nearby, and it doesn't succeed because we have a government that builds new roads and bridges. Does it contribute at all? Sure, but it's miniscule, and I mean miniscule. Because of the internet, I don't need the government built roads near as much as I used to. But of course, Obama tries to give most of the credit to the government for the invention of the internet too. One liberal even claims he invented the internet.....cough cough

    What Obama's comment revealed, is his fundamental philosophy behind "collectivism". It diminishes the philosophy of rugged individualism, entreprenuership, free market capitalism. Ya know, the things that literally built America and made it the greatest nation in the history of the world.

    Like I've said so many times before, YOU don't listen to the man's words, OR, you agree with him philosophically. Either you don't understand his philosophy, OR, you 100% agree with it. It's the Socialistic philosophy of "collectivism". Listen to some of his speeches, read his books. He doesn't hide his philosophy. In "Audacity of Hope", he talks extensively about "collective salvation". You know what that means? It means he believes HE isn't saved, until we are ALL saved. Collectively. How many times have you heard him use the terminology "shared sacrifice"???? That's a "collective" philosophy. Everyone shares sacrifice. Of course, everyone but government. These are very strong Socialist philosophies, and they go against the philosophy of "individual responsibility", "individual acheivment", "individual entreprenuership", "individual freedom", "individualism" in general.

    His philosophy seeks to diminish the very best, to make them no more important than anyone else. Which explains his comment, "if you have a business, you didn't build that. Someone else made that happen". He is diminishing the individual acheivements of the business owner, and equating them with some random person that paid $150 in property taxes that went to help pay for the road outside. It's absolutely an insult to people who have risked much, and worked hard to build something. He doesn't know the meaning of building something. And you can try to explain his comments away all you like. It's the context of his statement that is insulting, not just the comment itself. I understand Obama, you dont. OR, you agree with him wholeheartedly, and are afraid to admit it. Either way, I still understand his philosophies. I've studied him, I've read his books, I've watched him speak, I've read his speeches over again, and most importantly, I just listen to him talk. He isn't from the same mold I'm from, or most Americans are from. The mold that honors our individuality, rewards our individual successes, and holds up individuality as the key component to success.

    Do you even have a clue what I'm saying?????

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    And this is how stupid his comment was. It shows his utter ignorance for what makes a successful business successful.

    Let me put it in terms you might understand. Roads and bridges do not make a company or small business successful. If they did, every single business would be successful, because there is a road in front of virtually every business in America.
    You know, writing the same flawed manifesto over and over doesn't make it any more true. Obama didn't say that government alone can make a business successful. He said that it takes us all pulling together AND individual initiative.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I think you are mistaken. Can you please cite the section(s) of ACA that lead you to conclude that premiums can be set by anyone other than the insurance companies participating in the exchanges?



    And please cite the section discussing the alleged committee that controls premium increases.



    All due respect, but I think that this multi-hundred-billion-dollar industry, with its legion of lawyers, accountants, and actuaries, probably has a better idea of what's good for it than you do.



    Again, the info. you've received is bull****. First, states are responsible for setting up their own exchanges. They can choose the carriers they prefer. If they choose not to do the work then the residents of the state will have access to the federal exchange. There will be no "government plan" as the public option was specifically nixed. There can, however, be independent nonprofit cooperatives.
    I've cited my source. IT's the actual bill itself. Take your time, read it more carefully.

    Insurance companies within the exchange may set a minimum price. But the maximum price for any "qualified plan" is established by the exchange, or the committee. In addition, any rate increase on premiums must be approved by the committee as well. This is standard stuff that is in the first 50 pages of the bill.

    Also, you are 100% wrong about the states setting up the exchanges. If that were true, states would be able to "opt out" of Obamacare, which they cannot do. The states were able to opt out of the Medicaid requirement, and the federal government (the liberal dictators), tried to force them to accept that requirement. They did so by saying that if the states didn't go along with the Medicaid provisions, then the feds would cut off ALL Medicaid funds to the state. But as you know, the Supreme Court over ruled the government on that as well.

    The exchange is a federal exchange, underwritten by insurance companies in all 50 states. There will be no more than 10 carriers within the exchange. And if you would like to make a wager on the "government plan" being available within 5 years, I would happily bet some money on it with you. The way they are going to get it done, is insurance premiums are going to continue to rise, despite this stupid bill, and within 5 years, the government will say "a public option is necessary because the rates are just too expensive".

    I've worked in the insurance industry for several years, and yes, those big companies have all kinds of lawyers and accountants, but that isn't the issue. They believe Obamacare is here to stay, and they may be right. They see where it's going to lead. Which is why they are pre-emptively cutting agent commissions in half right now. It's also why they are raising premiums faster than they ever have before. They are making hay while the sun is still shining. Once the government mandates that they can only utilize 15% of their revenues for investing, what do you think is going to happen????? Geez man, think. They are simply bargaining for scraps at the government table. They want a place, because they don't want to go out of business. They believe that if they go along with it all, then they will be spared, just like GM was spared. Just like Goldman-Sachs was spared.

    Don't doubt me man. You heard Nancy Pelosi, and Obama himself say that "single payer" is their ultimate goal. And if they have to go through a window, a side door, a back door, a trap door....hell, it doesn't matter to them. It doesn't matter if it takes another decade. You're a fool if you don't understand this about the left. You think this is something they are going to settle for?? The left?? Problem is, you probably agree with a single payer system. Yet you don't know the ramifications of such an idea in America, and the negative effects it has on businesses. Do yourself a favor, go talk to business owners like I do every day. Get their take on Obamacare, then ask them why so many business owners oppose it. You think it's because Obama is black? lol, or you think it's because he's a Democrat? lol...nah. Neither one of those are the primary reasons. The primary reason is because it's burdensome on businesses of ALL sizes. If it doesn't effect a small business directly, it certainly effects them indirectly. In many ways.

    Its their goal, and they are happy as can be that they are one giant leap closer to acheiving it.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You operate under this false notion that conservatism = anarchy and people don't want any government institutions or functions what so ever. You view things that Obama says, give him the benefit of the doubt, seek to find nuanced ways to explain it or describe it...but then you give no such benefit of the doubt to conservatives, seeking to look at context and recognition of common phrases and common sense regarding intent and message behind them. They notion that one "does it on their own" is not suggesting a literalistic interpritation where they had succeeded entirely without any possible interactoin with anyone else in any way shape or form that resulted in a positive thing, but rather a statement of the belief that their successes came about primarily due to their own efforts and work. You could say "Well, that success wouldn't happen without the community that contributed". True. And I could say that the success wouldn't have happened just with the community if there wasn't an individual to do the hard work, make the sacrifices, and take the risks. The difference is you think it's perfectly acceptable to promote one aspect of that as far more important and needing to be focused on, but have some issue inherently with someone doing the opposite.
    I commend you for taking a balanced view on this issue, but I am afraid a majority of your conservative bretheren actually do not understand how important the government is in creating a climate in which businesses can succeed and, I contend, this misguided attitude is becoming and more prevalent. Today's headline from Fox News: Small business owner to Obama -- you owe us!(Business owners don’t owe credit to government for their success. Government owes us credit for its existence! Government doesn’t enable or empower business owners. We empower government.
    Business owners would do just fine without government. But government, government employees, and the “takers” of society...) It's the same old hate that the conservative mainstream has been throwing out about government for years now, and it is becoming increasingly parroted by those on the right. It's an extremely adversarial stance and fails to recognize that the issue is much more nuanced than just government-vs-business. The two of them need one another -Why do so many conservatives refuse to acknowledge that?!!!! Evan Obama in his speech that has so raised the ire of the right, said that individual initiative was important.
    And I suppose you will retort that those on the left do not understand how important individual initiative and small businesses are to our economy, and I would absolutely disagree with you if you were to make this case. Obama has been very aggressive in advocating tax cuts for small businesses and so have many other progressives. Most any liberals I know acknowledge that the free-market private sector is critical to our well being. Why can't so many conservatives give the same nod to the importance of government?!
    You seem like a very level-headed thinker, but the majority of your fellow conservatives, I believe, have lost all perspective on this issue. Believe me, I live in a small conservative town and I have my finger on the pulse of what most conservatives are saying and thinking currently and they do, indeed, believe that the free market is the solution to all of our problems and that all individuals and businesses "do it all on their own with no help from anybody-government included!" If I had a dollar for each time I heard one of my conservative friends said that then, well, I'd have just as many dollars as I have conservative friends!

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    My problem with the "You didn't build that" rhetoric, is if external factors made a business successful, why isn't everyone a successful business owner? Why isn't every man/woman sitting on a street corner begging for change, a successful business owner?

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You know, writing the same flawed manifesto over and over doesn't make it any more true. Obama didn't say that government alone can make a business successful. He said that it takes us all pulling together AND individual initiative.
    And you can keep reapplying all the lipstick you want on that pig, it doesn't get any prettier. Look, the president has a worldview that ties into many in this country. With so many unemployed and for so long it is easy for a leader to scapgoat others that are not those dire circumstances. The president and his hangers on are running a campaign not based on hope and change, but blame the other guy. Whomever that is. In his case he can't fix things like he promised and that is Bush's fault. People can't get ahead because rich folks are holding them down. Health care costs will devour our budget and economy not because Obamacare did not bend the cost curve but because of greedy insurance companies and big pharma.

    The wonderful thing about a campaign like this is that there are so many who refuse to look behind the curtain to see what substance there is to any of these statements. Millions of lemmings willing to chant:

    It's not our fault blame, it's the fault of greedy ( fill in the blank).

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratrooper View Post
    My problem with the "You didn't build that" rhetoric, is if external factors made a business successful, why isn't everyone a successful business owner? Why isn't every man/woman sitting on a street corner begging for change, a successful business owner?
    It is the combination of personal abilities with living in a society that allows those skills to be used.


    Why do so many conservatives have such black/white views of the world? We do not live in an either/or universe, what is so difficult about this concept that so many fail to comprehend complexity.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    I've cited my source. IT's the actual bill itself. Take your time, read it more carefully.
    Don't be absurd. The law is almost 1000 pages long and it's ridiculous to suggest that someone should pour through it to support YOUR assertion with a pinpoint cite. You claim it's in the bill -- please at least cite the section number.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    I've cited my source. IT's the actual bill itself. Take your time, read it more carefully.
    [Edit: duplicate post]
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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