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Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

hazlnut said:
And when people steal your copyright, or harm your business, you can seek remedy here...

courthouse.jpg


We built those too. We maintain and run them for you.

You're Welcome Mitt.
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This is the usual type of brain-dead idiocy that employs two gaping, egregious, and obscenely dishonest strawmen:

1) That anyone objects to paying taxes for roads, police, courts, etc.

and

2) That the people who this is directed toward didn't pay taxes toward these things.

I think if one must engage in this kind of ridiculous, mendacious hyperbole, one doesn't have much of any point.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Blue_State said:
I guess what I meant to say is I disagree with how you got there. :)
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I got there the same way you did.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

covered_bridge_556x400.jpg


Who maintains this beauty that brings people into town?

The 7-11? NOPE.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Goods, products, supplies all need to get to stores.

How do they get there?

trucks-on-highway.jpg


Who built that?

Macy's??

NOPE.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Harshaw said:
This is the usual type of brain-dead idiocy that employs two gaping, egregious, and obscenely dishonest strawmen:

1) That anyone objects to paying taxes for roads, police, courts, etc.

and

2) That the people who this is directed toward didn't pay taxes toward these things.

I think if one must engage in this kind of ridiculous, mendacious hyperbole, one doesn't have much of any point.
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Nice straw man.

But if you following along with the thread, starting with the OP, we're talking about the word THAT.

In the sentence, you didn't build "that" -- President Obama, our President, was referring to bridges. I was giving examples of other things that business owners didn't build.

We all contribute to the general funds. Those who benefit the most from the public-private partnership need to paid their fair share.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

hazlnut said:
covered_bridge_556x400.jpg


Who maintains this beauty that brings people into town?

The 7-11? NOPE.
Click to expand...

Actually, most of the covered bridges in America are maintained by covered bridge historical societies. Volunteers.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

hazlnut said:
Nice straw man.

But if you following along with the thread, starting with the OP, we're talking about the word THAT.

In the sentence, you didn't build "that" -- President Obama, our President, was referring to bridges. I was giving examples of other things that business owners didn't build.
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MY post is a strawman? You're the one mentioning things even Obama didn't mention, and I'm the one with a strawman?

So, what exactly IS my "strawman"? You brought up the courts. You did this voluntarily; no one forced you to. What in my post is inaccurate?

We all contribute to the general funds. Those who benefit the most from the public-private partnership need to paid their fair share.
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Really. Of the funds which go to bridges and roads -- which are mostly state -- and for courts and police -- which are almost entirely state -- what's the "fair share"? How does one calculate this? And who, precisely, is paying what?

Give me all of these figures, and give me the lists of the specific who and what they pay, and exactly how much they're short of paying a fair share on bridges and roads and courts and police.

You're going to need to provide a lot of specific detail to make any kind of case at all. So do it.

(Besides, your lefty brethren keep insisting that Obama isn't making an argument for higher taxes. Do you disagree with them? Should they disagree with you?)
 
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Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Harshaw said:
Was financed nearly entirely by the founder of Bank of America, and his bank.
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The last of the construction bonds were retired in 1971, with $35 million in principal and nearly $39 million in interest raised entirely from bridge tolls.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Harshaw said:
Which came from the fruits of business. There's no chicken/egg relationship here; business came first.
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No, community came first, trade was second.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Gimmesometruth said:
The last of the construction bonds were retired in 1971, with $35 million in principal and nearly $39 million in interest raised entirely from bridge tolls.
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Sure. But it got built on Bank of America's money.

It was repaid by private contributions from the drivers who rode over it (that is, the tolls). If business derives more benefit from the bridge -- uses it more -- then business paid more of the tolls. So, voila, business made it happen, and business contributed most to retiring the bonds.

Thus, my point is even more solid. Still wanna help?
 
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Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Gimmesometruth said:
No, community came first, trade was second.
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Who said anything about "community"? It was about taxes.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Harshaw said:
Sure. But it got built on Bank of America's money.

It was repaid by private contributions from the drivers who rode over it (that is, the tolls). If business derives more benefit from the bridge -- uses it more -- then business paid more of the tolls. So, voila, business made it happen, and business contributed most to retiring the bonds.

Thus, my point is even more solid. Still wanna help?
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You are going to have to prove that business paid more of a toll. How did a business who gained greatly for the increased traffic to his door pay more directly in tolls? The marginal cost to deliveries is FAR outweighed by the overwhelming increase in traffic.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Harshaw said:
Who said anything about "community"? It was about taxes.
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Chicken/egg does exist, community is the egg...ie first.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Gimmesometruth said:
You are going to have to prove that business paid more of a toll.
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Heh. Weeeeeeak. I mean, I get it; you thought you had a slam dunk and it got turned around on you in a split second, but dude, really. It would have been better that you just didn't respond at all.

If you want to play this little game, you're going to have to prove that business uses it more often, and that they derive a greater benefits.

Oh, and by the way -- here's the toll schedule. The trucks that businesses use pay at LEAST three times as much as as a passenger car, and for most anything with a trailer, five times as much.


Teh.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Gimmesometruth said:
Chicken/egg does exist, community is the egg...ie first.
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No form of civilization above hunter-gatherer exists without trade. No taxes exist without trade.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Harshaw said:
Heh. Weeeeeeak. I mean, I get it; you thought you had a slam dunk and it got turned around on you in a split second, but dude, really. It would have been better that you just didn't respond at all.

If you want to play this little game, you're going to have to prove that business uses it more often, and that they derive a greater benefits.

Oh, and by the way -- here's the toll schedule. The trucks that businesses use pay at LEAST three times as much as as a passenger car, and for most anything with a trailer, five times as much.


Teh.
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Is that it? If you had come back with "well delivery business located in SF do pay".....then I would have conceded to that exception, but trucks going into SF are more often making multiple stops, so the toll burden is spread out, is marginal, and is totally overshadowed by the increased traffic to the owners door that he is not having to pay for. Again, if you can't show he is paying in some way directly for that increased traffic, you don't have a point.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Harshaw said:
No form of civilization above hunter-gatherer exists without trade. No taxes exist without trade.
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You keep ignoring
which came first.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Gimmesometruth said:
Is that it?
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:rofl

Nice bravado in the face of being utterly decimated.

If you had come back with "well delivery business located in SF do pay".....then I would have conceded to that exception, but trucks going into SF are more often making multiple stops, so the toll burden is spread out, is marginal, and is totally overshadowed by the increased traffic to the owners door that he is not having to pay for. Again, if you can't show he is paying in some way directly for that increased traffic, you don't have a point.
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:roll:

What "increased traffic"?

If there's more business traffic, and they're paying five times the toll on top of that, then they're paying considerably more tolls than the average Joe in the family car.

You imply it doesn't match the increased benefit, so dazzle us with all the figures -- how much more benefit, exactly, do businesses derive from the bridge, and how short does paying five times the toll fall?

Numbers, math, documentation, all that. Keep in mind all that this "benefit" must outweigh, including the sum total of the tolls paid by passenger cars -- and the "benefit" the people in those cars get by using the bridge.
 
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Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Gimmesometruth said:
You keep ignoring
which came first.
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I "ignored" nothing; I simply dismissed what you made up which had nothing to do with the point.

Business came before taxes, period. That's all there is to it.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Harshaw said:
:rofl

Nice bravado in the face of being utterly decimated.



:roll:

What "increased traffic"?

If there's more business traffic, and they're paying five times the toll on top of that, then they're paying considerably more tolls than the average Joe in the family car.

You imply it doesn't match the increased benefit, so dazzle us with all the figures -- how much more benefit, exactly, do businesses derive from the bridge, and how short does paying five times the toll fall?

Numbers, math, documentation, all that. Keep in mind all that this "benefit" must outweigh, including the sum total of the tolls paid by passenger cars.
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What single business is paying a 5x greater amount directly and how does that marginal cost outweigh the increased number of customers to his door?

This is so silly.

It is your argument to prove that the business owner IS paying a greater share in relation to his benefit. I know that if a road or bridge did not exist before, and I compare traffic after it is built, especially in a city like SF, that benefit far outstrips the marginal, fractional increase of delivery costs.

It is not even close.
 
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Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Harshaw said:
I "ignored" nothing; I simply dismissed what you made up which had nothing to do with the point.

Business came before taxes, period. That's all there is to it.
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Community came before business, you lose again.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Gimmesometruth said:
What single business is paying a 5x greater amount directly and how does that marginal cost outweigh the increased number of customers to his door?

This is so silly.

It is your argument to prove that the business owner IS paying a greater share in relation to his benefit.
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You see, your problem is that you don't follow arguments very well (a theme I will continue in my next post).

My argument is:

1) Private money, not tax money, got the Golden Gate Bridge built.

2) As you point out, the bonds were paid back by tolls. Not taxes.

This, of course, is plenty to shatter the idea that the Golden Gate Bridge was paid for out of tax dollars. It wasn't. And obliviously though you did, you helped show it.

However, as you continued to push on the point, I also observed that:

3) As the bonds were paid back by the people who use the bridge, looking at the tolls, business pay three to five times more to use it, and possibly more if they use vehicles with more than five axles.

It's YOU who are trying to delve into an actual accounting of their "increased benefit" of the Golden Gate Bridge. You, of course, have provided absolutely no documentation toward this. I, however, have given you the actual toll schedule. If YOU wish to claim that it's not enough, then it's up to YOU to show it. My entire and sole claim is that yes, they pay considerably more. And if they run more traffic over the bridge, then they pay even more.

So yes, it is indeed "so silly," because the feebleness of your attempt at argument was exposed and dispensed with several posts ago, yet you won't let it go. You insist on making it worse for yourself with each post.

(Really -- you couldn't have looked up the toll schedule before you posted?)
 
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