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Thread: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.
    i fail to see anything in that quote that is factually incorrect or even mildly controversial.

    another fox news distortion.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    You don't see anything at least POSSIBLE to be controversial about "If you've got a business - you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen".

    That's no different than saying "If you've got a business you've got it becaues of yourself. No one else helped you make that".

    It completely devalues, and in that particular instance completely removes, any individual effort or activity placing ALL the responsability and praise onto the community. That's ridiculous to suggest.

    If you can't honestly see how there is something even mildly controversial then to be quite frank you're not looking at it very objectively.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I suspect this will hurt him with those who cannot see how anyone every helped anyone who was successful. The individualism myth is a large one, and American mythology is powerful.
    I'm rather surprised you don't seem to understand Obama's statement. There is no context to infer, or conclusion to be drawn. His words verbatim stand alone. Obama gives no credit to those who have become successful. He said, "You didn't build that. Someone else made that happen."

    If youíve got a business ó you didnít build that. Somebody else made that happen.
    President Barack Obama
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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Sigh.

    Here's my point LMD.

    How'd you learn to create that recipe? Did you just spontanteously figure it out? Or did you gain cooking skills from a culinary school, or reading books related to cooking, or helping your father or mother cook, or watching cooking shows? How did you start that resturant? Did you take a loan from someone, even a bank? Did you have any help with investing in capital. Did you have anyone help with the design and decor of the shop or advertising it? Did you have friends spreading the word about your place for you?

    Now on the flip side...no matter how you learned how to make that recipe, it still took individual effort to actually learn it and perfect it. Regardless of how you got the money to start up the business, you actually took the initiative and took the risks and chances associated with it. If you had help with advertising or design, you built the individual relationships with people who helped and took actions in a way that inspired them to help you.

    And then it can go on and on.

    It's a never ending wheel. Almost nothing is done for a reason that can be traced back singularly to individual effort....and the same can be said in regards to environment/community. The difference is which part of that cycle a person feels deserves greater weight and importance. You feel the individual deserves greater importance...boo feels the community aspect deserves greater importance....neither of your are necessarily wrong or right because it's an entirely subjective thing. Can you point to extreme examples on your end of individuals working hard and succeeding even though some environmental or community factors should've hindered them? Sure. You can also point to individuals whose individual actions should have resulted in great horror and no good at all and yet through community and environment end up gaining beneficial things. However, by and large, in most cases, it is almost always a mix of the two in some fashion or form.
    Ah but wait, if I go to culinary school that is a traded value, I've already paid someone to share that knowledge with me, same thing with any design help in the restaurant, they aren't partners in my business, they make a value determination upon materials and time used to do that service for me and then the partnership ends upon my last payment, they aren't doing it for "me" or for my restaurant but rather for compensation. Same thing with the loan I would take out, the bank isn't doing it for "me" or because they want to be partners in my restaurant but rather to make money on the interest accrued by lending me the money, it isn't neutral like a grant. I guess my point is that values are already traded, the other side is trying to change the values in lieu of the workers who have already taken the job at X compensation for the Y conditions. The major failing with the "community effort" value judgement is that it completely ignores the driving value of initial ideas, labor, investment and reinvestment. The community valuation also ignores that every tax dollar spent by employees came from employers who in turn tend to have larger tax bills on top of overhead.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    I'm rather surprised you don't seem to understand Obama's statement. There is no context to infer, or conclusion to be drawn. His words verbatim stand alone. Obama gives no credit to those who have become successful. He said, "You didn't build that. Someone else made that happen."
    And here's the flip side of Helix.

    There is context becuase it's one sentence in the midst of two entire paragrpahs talking about it. Reading it alone, it looks absolutely damning. Reading it as the whole, it is reasonable to suggest it's a bit of hyperbole in the context of the entire message that is basically suggesting that the individual doesn't accomplish things on his own, that anything people do is in part due to those around them and the system that exists.

    Now, that's DEFINITELY still able to be argued about. But it's not unreasonable to suggest that the entire two paragraphs surrounding his comment speaks more to the context and intent behind it then a singular line within the entire thing.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Ah but wait, if I go to culinary school that is a traded value, I've already paid someone to share that knowledge with me, same thing with any design help in the restaurant, they aren't partners in my business, they make a value determination upon materials and time used to do that service for me and then the partnership ends upon my last payment, they aren't doing it for "me" or for my restaurant but rather for compensation. Same thing with the loan I would take out, the bank isn't doing it for "me" or because they want to be partners in my restaurant but rather to make money on the interest accrued by lending me the money, it isn't neutral like a grant. I guess my point is that values are already traded, the other side is trying to change the values in lieu of the workers who have already taken the job at X compensation for the Y conditions. The major failing with the "community effort" value judgement is that it completely ignores the driving value of initial ideas, labor, investment and reinvestment. The community valuation also ignores that every tax dollar spent by employees came from employers who in turn tend to have larger tax bills on top of overhead.
    Regardless of why they do it, the fact they do it is part of what's allowing you to do it. But you highlight my point that it's all a cycle. Their help or service to you is instrumental to the individual things you do, but that help or service is made possible due to individual actions or choices. Which wre likely helped out in some way through community/environmental situations. And on and on and on and on.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i fail to see anything in that quote that is factually incorrect or even mildly controversial.

    another fox news distortion.
    Every bit of that is factually incorrect. If I own a business based off of my ideas and the employees all pissed me off I could fire every last one of them, rehire a new crew, and still have my business. For that sentence to be true it would have to follow that I created the business, not my employees, and frankly it is true.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Regardless of why they do it, the fact they do it is part of what's allowing you to do it. But you highlight my point that it's all a cycle. Their help or service to you is instrumental to the individual things you do, but that help or service is made possible due to individual actions or choices. Which wre likely helped out in some way through community/environmental situations. And on and on and on and on.
    I get all of that, here's the catch: If no businesses exist requiring the services of secondary business then their labor has no demand, yet if the secondary business didn't exist I could probably design my own dining room/bar layout, if I went gourmet I could get away with less employees by serving and cashiering while the sauces cook, etc. I guess I'm getting at this, while laborers are important they don't exist without the investment class(bosses, money, ideas).
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You don't see anything at least POSSIBLE to be controversial about "If you've got a business - you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen".

    That's no different than saying "If you've got a business you've got it becaues of yourself. No one else helped you make that".

    It completely devalues, and in that particular instance completely removes, any individual effort or activity placing ALL the responsability and praise onto the community. That's ridiculous to suggest.

    If you can't honestly see how there is something even mildly controversial then to be quite frank you're not looking at it very objectively.
    read the sentences before and after the fox selected sentence. an individual business did not build the road or create the internet. those things were created by a lot of people; both in government and in the private sector. the point is that doing things together for society benefits everyone, and every business uses a wide variety of infrastructure that it didn't build.

    there's nothing remotely controversial about that, and one has to really stretch to read it the way fox presents it.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Every bit of that is factually incorrect. If I own a business based off of my ideas and the employees all pissed me off I could fire every last one of them, rehire a new crew, and still have my business. For that sentence to be true it would have to follow that I created the business, not my employees, and frankly it is true.
    does your business use infrastructure that it didn't build by itself?

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