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Thread: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

  1. #21
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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    For those interested in a reading of it without any additional outside commentary and other such things....Transcript for you from the white house

    LINK

    The money quote in full
    Most everyone understands that very few people were born with a silver spoon in their mouths and received help along the way, but this statement is offensive to those who have worked hard to get where they are. It just shows how out of touch he really is.

    If youíve got a business ó you didnít build that. Somebody else made that happen.
    President Barack Obama
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    Generalizations are stupid.
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    The Second Amendment has nothing to do with guns.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Chicken and egg, chicken and egg, chicken and egg.

    Almost every individual effort is shaped in part by environmental conditions which were likely shaped in part due to individual efforts which....on and on.

    As I said to a few friends on email...the funny thing is…he’s right, but he’s wrong as well. The reality is, often, success is a mixture of environment/community and the individual. Sometimes environment almost alone can spur it…sometimes the individual almost on their own can do it, but usually it’s a mix. The difference is…and it’s so interesting reading it because it’s often a great dichotomy between the two parties…is which of those two ingredients do you choose to highlight, promote, and give adulation to and which do you downplay or degrade or write off.

    Obama chooses to highlight and promote the community while devaluing and downplaying the individual. Traditionally, Republicans hype up the individual while downplaying the community. What becomes interesting is which of the two arguments will win over the fickle American people this time around.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    Then maybe you'll want to change your lean, which states you're a socialist.
    I didn't see a social democrat option.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    HA! I never thought that a campaign stop in my little old city would create a national story.

    What Obama said, in its entirety, isn't horribly off base. Neither are those who would tell the exact same story but focus on the individual. The reality is that situations of success can be attributed both to the individual and to the environment they've had around them. The difference of course is the desire to highlight one or the other...to highlight the community or highlight the individual. It'll be interesting to see which thing people buy into larger this year.
    Well said, but many people like to BELIEVE that they did everything on their own. My brother-in-law is a doctor. Smart hard working fellow. Loves to tell every how he did it all on his own. There's just one problem. His grandfather on one side paid for his education, and his grandmother paid for his expenses, including $5,000 a month living expenses. I take nothing from his hard work, as without that he would not have succeed. But the fact remains he had help. Most of us do. The difference is some recognize this, and others seek to take all the credit.

    I suspect this will hurt him with those who cannot see how anyone every helped anyone who was successful. The individualism myth is a large one, and American mythology is powerful.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    This comes back to the discussion of "Who owns the result of my labor first? The government or myself.
    In the President's world, Government owns the result of all labor first, and the individual is allowed to keep
    what the government deems necessary.
    The world I would rather live in, Taxes are necessary, but the individual owns the result their own labor first.
    Government provides a framework for business expansion.
    The distinction between these two may seem subtle, but represent the difference between slavery and freedom.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    Most everyone understands that very few people were born with a silver spoon in their mouths and received help along the way, but this statement is offensive to those who have worked hard to get where they are. It just shows how out of touch he really is.
    It's not even the place of Obama or Elizabeth Warren who basically issued the same sophistry to speak to what work is involved in success, they've never had to do it. Obama was propped up from a young age by political connections and Warren pretty much lied her way into prominence using a made up ethnic heritage and misuse of affirmative action. I did have a business for most of my twenties, I was an independent insurance agent while I was also working elsewhere and in college , I didn't make it but put in ten times the work of my peers. Free time to me was getting to hang out with friends and EVEN then I was thinking shop. I guess we could speak to the hospital position Michelle Obama was granted that didn't involve much work and dissappeareed when Mr. Obama took the office of president, it was considered a "do nothing" position, but then again not everyone has the easy money connections and have to do things for ourselves.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well said, but many people like to BELIEVE that they did everything on their own. My brother-in-law is a doctor. Smart hard working fellow. Loves to tell every how he did it all on his own. There's just one problem. His grandfather on one side paid for his education, and his grandmother paid for his expenses, including $5,000 a month living expenses. I take nothing from his hard work, as without that he would not have succeed. But the fact remains he had help. Most of us do. The difference is some recognize this, and others seek to take all the credit.
    The problem is you do take something from his hard work. His grandfather paid for his education...but he managed to get the oppertunity to have that educaiton due to the work he put into school to get the grades and the extracurriculurs to get accepted to that school. His grandfather managed to continue to pay for that education because he was successfully working at college to be able to pass the classes and learn his trade to allow himself the oppertunity to pay to stay in college. And on and on. That's my point. You choose in that paragraph to focus LARGELY on hyping up and promoting all the help he got while giving little to no credit to his individual efforts. The only mentions you made from it was a negative statement about how he BELIEVES it was all on his own and a statement of saying you "take nothing from his hard work" after you spent the entire post focusing singularly on his help from others.

    The real differnece isn't that some recognize this, and others seek to take all the credit. The real differnece is that some wish to propogate and talk up one side and others with to do the other side and few rarely give equal play or credit to both. Because the reality is there's no real subjective way to say which one truly caused the other or allowed for the other or had more impact because you just simply can't test for that.

    This won't hurt Obama because people "cannot see how anyone every helped anyone who was successful"...it will hurt Obama because while he focused on propping up the community aspect and severely downplayed the individual side of it, there are others who choose to simply act the opposite way of Obama and promote the individual aspect of the community. The difference is you seem to imply that those who view it the latter are somehow more "wrong" or less "right" than Obama's.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Chicken and egg, chicken and egg, chicken and egg.
    ,
    Almost every individual effort is shaped in part by environmental conditions which were likely shaped in part due to individual efforts which....on and on.
    I don't buy that Zpyh. While it's true that overall the market dictates whether an idea is viable at a particular time or even at all, it takes work to sell the idea to market, it takes work to make the idea conform to the environment. Things that are on shelves today had to be sold prior to that.
    As I said to a few friends on email...the funny thing is…he’s right, but he’s wrong as well. The reality is, often, success is a mixture of environment/community and the individual. Sometimes environment almost alone can spur it…sometimes the individual almost on their own can do it, but usually it’s a mix. The difference is…and it’s so interesting read it because it’s often a great dichotomy between the two poarties…is which of those two ingredients do you choose to highlight, promote, and give adulation to and which do you downplay or degrade or write off.
    Subccess boils down to personal choices, with some luck involved. For instance I've known wealthy kids who literally snorted, stuck, and toked away their inheritance and now work at Taco Bell, I know millionaires who started with nothing.
    Obama chooses to highlight and promote the community while devaluing and downplaying the individual. Traditionally, Republicans hype up the individual while downplaying the community. What becomes interesting is which of the two arguments will win over the fickle American people this time around.
    The problem is that Obama is ignoring the initial work that allowed the people he focuses on to have an opportunity in the first place. If I start a restaurant and set the menu I can find hundreds of people who can read my recipes and cook. How many of them can create a recipe that I would be proud to serve?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Then I suppose Obama also claims that no one is really responsible for his or her failures too. That also is the result of other people. We are all just workers of the big ant hive, also born to live and die serving the hive.

    Only malcontent evil people claim any individuality or lack of life obligation to the good of the hive.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The problem is that Obama is ignoring the initial work that allowed the people he focuses on to have an opportunity in the first place. If I start a restaurant and set the menu I can find hundreds of people who can read my recipes and cook. How many of them can create a recipe that I would be proud to serve?
    Sigh.

    Here's my point LMD.

    How'd you learn to create that recipe? Did you just spontanteously figure it out? Or did you gain cooking skills from a culinary school, or reading books related to cooking, or helping your father or mother cook, or watching cooking shows? How did you start that resturant? Did you take a loan from someone, even a bank? Did you have any help with investing in capital. Did you have anyone help with the design and decor of the shop or advertising it? Did you have friends spreading the word about your place for you?

    Now on the flip side...no matter how you learned how to make that recipe, it still took individual effort to actually learn it and perfect it. Regardless of how you got the money to start up the business, you actually took the initiative and took the risks and chances associated with it. If you had help with advertising or design, you built the individual relationships with people who helped and took actions in a way that inspired them to help you.

    And then it can go on and on.

    It's a never ending wheel. Almost nothing is done for a reason that can be traced back singularly to individual effort....and the same can be said in regards to environment/community. The difference is which part of that cycle a person feels deserves greater weight and importance. You feel the individual deserves greater importance...boo feels the community aspect deserves greater importance....neither of your are necessarily wrong or right because it's an entirely subjective thing. Can you point to extreme examples on your end of individuals working hard and succeeding even though some environmental or community factors should've hindered them? Sure. You can also point to individuals whose individual actions should have resulted in great horror and no good at all and yet through community and environment end up gaining beneficial things. However, by and large, in most cases, it is almost always a mix of the two in some fashion or form.

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