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Thread: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Romulus View Post
    No, I made it up then posted it on Wiki.

    Full Employment in a Free Society by William Henry Beveridge Part II, Sections 1-3 deals with employment as described by various economists from different countries and time periods who collectively quantify "full employment" in a range between 2 and 13%. Beveridge, like Dillard, claims it is 3%. Well below the Bush era rate.

    Even if you accept your lover Boo "Duncan Grant" Radley's range of 2-7%, Bush's rate fell in the middle of that...so your shoulda coulda woulda retrospective astrology can come from either end of the argument.



    Sure, it wasn't the Keynesian ideology of keeping interest rates closest to zero (Keynes ridiculously believed interest rate could and should be zero) which effects tens of trillions of dollars of commerce (most especially, home loans)...it was the marginal difference in the tax rate between Clinton and Bush on the top quintile of earners (who can afford homes at high rates). Right? Explain to me how cutting taxes on the wealthy caused the non-wealthy to buy homes they couldn't afford?

    Also, since you're attempting derail the topic with speculation you are "quit sure" about, why do interventionist economists like Keynes and Beveridge always seem to join groups like the British Eugenics Society? I mean, since you are apparently not only a great astrologer, you are highly talented medium who knows where people who have been dead for 66 years come down on the Bush tax cuts.
    So first, I'm not going to buy a book to check your "facts". Second, and again -- frictional unemployment is not the same thing as full employment, and what might be considered full employment in other countries isn't particularly relevant to what it might be in the U.S.

    I'll ignore your new attempted diversion with tabloid ad hominem.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So first, I'm not going to buy a book to check your "facts". Second, and again -- frictional unemployment is not the same thing as full employment, and what might be considered full employment in other countries isn't particularly relevant to what it might be in the U.S.

    I'll ignore your new attempted diversion with tabloid ad hominem.
    You don't have to buy it. No doubt it's at a library somewhere near you, It's been available since 1945. considering Keynes was a Brit, I guess you've come around to reject him being "particular relevant to what" full employment "might be in the U.S". I'm happy to have persuaded you.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Romulus View Post
    You don't have to buy it. No doubt it's at a library somewhere near you, It's been available since 1945. considering Keynes was a Brit, I guess you've come around to reject him being "particular relevant to what" full employment "might be in the U.S". I'm happy to have persuaded you.
    Of course you haven't actually read it. I can follow the Wiki links just like you.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Of course you haven't actually read it. I can follow the Wiki links just like you.
    Sure, it's my favorite source for info.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    "By a continuing process of inflation, government can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." - Keynes

    Take a look at how inflation is calculated in America today, as opposed to just 20 years ago. Remember, 20 years ago was in the 1990s!!! No longer does the government factor in food, and energy into inflation numbers. The two most important things pertaining to inflation. Hmmmm.....I wonder why that is? Probably to secretly confiscate wealth. How's government getting involved in these two industries? Have you seen the latest changes to the new farm bill? Have you paid any attention to the thousands of new regulations on the oil and gas industry? This is how governments can somewhat manipulate pricing. Have any of you seen the price of corn this week? How about the price of wheat? How about the price of live cattle? And you wonder why hamburger meat has gone from $1.98/lb to almost $5/lb in less than 4 years??? The government is more corrupt than any corporation. With unmatched power, the progressives think they can force people into the lifestyles they agree with. By pushing up the price of gas, they believe they can force people into green energy. By pushing up the price of corn, they believe they can force companies into ethanol production. Meanwhile, food and gas prices continue to be one of the biggest cinder blocks around the ankles of the American middle class family.

    Keynes believed that government should be the central regulator of an economy. I think Keynes was an economist who wished he was a philosopher. But his philosophies were anything but "American".

    "The decadent international but individualistic capitalism in the hands of which we found ourselves after the war is not a success. It is not intelligent. It is not beautiful. It is not just. It is not virtuous. And it doesn't deliver the goods." - Keynes

    This he said during the greatest economic expansion in the history of the world.

    Oh, and by the way, does anyone know how Keynes made his money? Trading futures in currency markets, using personal money along with large sums of money from private financiers. A little hypocritical to his lofty philosophies.
    Last edited by Masada; 08-01-12 at 12:07 PM.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    When Keynes wrote and spoke about "frictional" unemployment, one of the main jists of his argument was that one's wage be equal to the marginal product of his labour. He wrote about this in "The General Theory of Employment". Because he argued that one's wage should be equal to the marginal product of his labour, he encouraged laborers to withhold their labor if they deemed the wage to be too low.

    Put that into perspective. A GM Pickup sales new for about 25k on average. The worker contributes to making 100 cars per year. He is one of ten workers who are responsible for building that truck. The marginal product of their labour equals 2.5 million dollars. Divided by ten workers, that's $250,000 per year going to labor. Tell me, how long could a company afford to make cars if they paid their labor force this way?

    This is one of the best examples of how his pseudo-intellectual narcicism sounds really good as a populist message, but is an utter failure in the real world of economics. If a worker withheld his labor for this type of reason, he factored it in as "frictional" unemployment. In short, Keynes was just like Marx, and even Hitler, in this sense. He was an advocate for the labor movement, and the labor party. Very reminiscent of Obama, and his support for organized labor in America, and all the political pay backs to organized labor over the past 4 years.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    So, try paying attention to "how" Keynesians, and Marxists try to FORCE their ideologies onto societies. Take Mayor Bloomberg in NYC for example. Through directive, he attempts to manipulate and control individual behavior. From drinking cokes to breast feeding.

    Through the EPA (government mandates and regulations), the federal government tries to manipulate and control fuel efficiency, pollution, production, exploration, development, and ultimately, profits.

    Through the farm bill, federal government tries to manipulate corn production in the direction of ethanol fuel instead of food. For the first time in our nation's history, just as much corn goes to producing ethanol as food. What does that do to the price of corn? Drives it sky high. What does that do to food prices? Drives them up as well.

    All the while, the government cleverly, and secretly passed a statute that exempted food and energy from being calculated into inflation rates. If you just go back to the formula the government used to calculate inflation in 1992, the inflation rate today would be over 8%. Tell me liberals, how can you exempt the two goods in our economy from inflation rates that most effect the real incomes of middle and lower class families?

    Do any of you even think about this stuff? Do you even pay attention in the grocery store? I know fuel prices have been a topic of debate, but do you realize "what" is keeping the national average price for a gallon of gas over $3.30? It certainly isn't supply and demand issues. Over the course of this recession, fuel demand dropped, while supplies increased. Hmmm....yet the price kept going up. Government would have the public believe that corporate greed is the reason for this. But a smart person only has to look in one place to see if that claim is true. PROFIT MARGINS. Over the recession, the profit margin within the oil and gas industry dropped from 7.6% to 7.2%. Do liberals have any idea what this means????? It means that the margin for PROFIT is smaller than it was before, even though the price of one of their primary goods had increased from $1.89 per gallon to over $3.30 per gallon. How's this possible????

    I can tell you. Even though the price has risen, the cost to produce gasoline has risen even faster. Why? Primarily because of new government regulations that purposefully make it more expensive to explore for, drill for, extract, refine, and deliver their product to market. Gasoline is the end result of many stages of production. The government "taxes" each stage of production. They tax exploration, they tax drilling, they tax extraction, they tax refining, and they tax distribution. THEN they tax the final product!! But dolts like Obama try to demonize the oil company, who is still only receiving about a 7% profit on their investment and labor.

    Progressives are liars. They puposefully make it more expensive to produce necessary items for our society and economy, then turn around and try to blame the companies producing them. Why do they purposefully make gasoline more expensive? Because they want to punish the oil companies, and reward the green energy companies. Why? Because politically, they support green energy, and if green energy is successful, they can say, "see, we know what is best for America". Therefore, they regulate the heck out of Exxon Mobil, and give hundreds of millions of dollars to Solyndra, which ultimately went belly up. This is known as "crony capitalism". Picking winners and losers based on a political ideology and philosophy. Not on supply and demand. Not on the free market. Not based on consumer confidence. They are picking who they think SHOULD BE winners, even though those companies are going bankrupt.

    Wake up liberals!!! This Keynesian, Marxist style of economics is going to turn us into Europe. A huge economic powerhouse controlled by organized labor and centralized government. It's a fail. Utter failure.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    "By a continuing process of inflation, government can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." - Keynes
    Yes, Keynes thought that keeping inflation low was critical.

    Take a look at how inflation is calculated in America today, as opposed to just 20 years ago. Remember, 20 years ago was in the 1990s!!! No longer does the government factor in food, and energy into inflation numbers. The two most important things pertaining to inflation.
    There are many ways to calculate inflation, and it is calculated many ways. Food and energy are notoriously volatile and so don't give a great indication of historical trends. But you could look at the Consumper Price Index, for example. It's been in the 2-4% range for decades. In fact those numbers are probably too high, as they don't count electonics items that didn't exist when the index started, and which have fallen sharply in price over the years.

    Obvsiously energy prices are closely tracked, so that's not exactly sneaking up on anyone.

    Hmmmm.....I wonder why that is? Probably to secretly confiscate wealth.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, it's a conspiracy.

    Keynes believed that the government should regulate business cycles through monetary policy. He was not a socialist in any manner of speaking.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Yes, Keynes thought that keeping inflation low was critical.
    True but, Keynes' approach to inflation was the taxation of the wealthy NOT higher interest rates. This model fails because we've observed rising unemployment and rising inflation (stagflation), we've observed higher interest rates, lower taxes, and declining inflation with the policies of Volker/Carter/Reagan. Non of this is possible according to Keynes. In addition, Keynes does want to keep inflation in check, but inflation to Keynes is necessary. It may come as a shock to you having been acculturated through public schools and countless hours of MSNBC, but inflation is not necessary, deflation is good for those who save and savings is the basis of all wealth.

    There are many ways to calculate inflation, and it is calculated many ways. Food and energy are notoriously volatile and so don't give a great indication of historical trends. But you could look at the Consumper Price Index, for example. It's been in the 2-4% range for decades. In fact those numbers are probably too high, as they don't count electonics items that didn't exist when the index started, and which have fallen sharply in price over the years.

    Obvsiously energy prices are closely tracked, so that's not exactly sneaking up on anyone.

    Hmmmm.....I wonder why that is? Probably to secretly confiscate wealth.

    Yes, it's a conspiracy.
    It has less to with a conspiracy than Keynesian econometricians confirming their bias. Although, the current scheme to calculate inflation is rather handy to politicians who support monetizing the debt through quantitative easing cycles. QE cycles cause commodity prices to rise, and is a hidden regressive tax. Not something you want to brag about if your campaign promised to only raise taxes on the wealthy.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Yes, Keynes thought that keeping inflation low was critical.



    There are many ways to calculate inflation, and it is calculated many ways. Food and energy are notoriously volatile and so don't give a great indication of historical trends. But you could look at the Consumper Price Index, for example. It's been in the 2-4% range for decades. In fact those numbers are probably too high, as they don't count electonics items that didn't exist when the index started, and which have fallen sharply in price over the years.

    Obvsiously energy prices are closely tracked, so that's not exactly sneaking up on anyone.

    Hmmmm.....I wonder why that is? Probably to secretly confiscate wealth.
    Yes, it's a conspiracy.

    Keynes believed that the government should regulate business cycles through monetary policy. He was not a socialist in any manner of speaking.[/QUOTE]

    Actually inflation has been running below 2% for decades. Food and energy are calculated in the overall inflation numbers. Inflation, as calculated does take into account things bought today, including electronics and this had had a damping effect on overall inflation.

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