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Thread: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    I know this is anti-Obama and therefore you have trouble with it. When Obama talked about business owners working hard or being smart and then others also have those qualities what do you think he was implying.

    It seems that the campaign response so far has been to look to road and bridges phrases to wiggle out of what he truly believes. America should not be a country of equal opportunity but one of equal results. Now he did not say that, but that is my interpretation.
    Please very strongly consider the possibility that you interpreted incorrectly. Obama loves the market economy. He just believes that the government has a very important role in ensuring that more and more people can contribute to it, participate in it, and benefit from it. Not that radical of a concept at all and, indeed, one that has proven its worth for decades in this country.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by zeusomally View Post
    Once again, no one ever said that collective government is responsible for ALL individual success. I am not saying that. Obama is not saying that. No one on this board is saying that. Please demonstrate to me where I have ever said that! All I have ever said is that government is and important contributor to the success of our economy. QUIT SAYING THAT I SAID THAT IT RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SUCCESS!
    And, actually, collectivism is alive and well in EVERY successful country on the planet. Give me one example of a successful economy that does combine capitalism with collectivism. Go ahead. Name me one. Just one!
    Obama is a dictator. Go ahead, give me some specific examples of this. Those are strong words, so I hope you have evidence to back it up.
    And Obama, by the way, is smart and educated. Sorry pal, but you do not obtain the academic credentials he has just by being one or the other.

    To be a Collectivist does not mean that you don't believe that there is not a place for Capitalism. They are not mutually exclusive. Collectivists, in many cases, simply believe that there are some things that should be best left to the government, and others to the private sector. Once again, show give me and example of one successful economy in the world does that does not combine collective socialist government with the free market.


    I want you to succeed and so does the government. you yourself have said in one of your previous posts that government cannot exist without tax money. So why then, would they possibly want to make you fail?!! You are contradicting yourself with your very own logic. The more successful you are the better the odds that they will be able to raise the taxes they believe they need to operate the government and the better chances they would have to get reelected!
    Also, they do not take responsibility for all of the successes for business. Once again, you keep saying that, but it is not true. Show me the text of a speech where Obama ever said that.
    I agree with you that without private profit there could be no public good. But I also would add that without public good, there would be very little private profit to be made.

    Obama never said that smarts and hard work aren't necessary for a successful business. All he is saying is that individual initiative can best thrive when it is supported by collective governance. Once again, the two things are NOT exclusive of one another.
    I couldn't disagree with you more. Under our government, and especially THIS administration, businesses succeed DESPITE the government, not BECAUSE of government. I'll give you a prime example. Exxon-Mobil. Do you believe the government slapping their industry with 4000 new regulations, which have the same economic effect as a new tax, is helping them succeed? Absolutely not. But because they provide a valuable good, they succeed despite the government.

    I'm speaking about two battling philosophies. Our founders fought for a nation of individual states. Not a nation controlled by a single central government. Read the Constitution. Federal government is strictly limited in it's rights and jurisdiction. All other matters of sovereign authority was granted to the states. They did this for a reason. It established a government, but maintained the crucial philosophy of individualism. States rights, individually. Not collectively.

    The philosophy of the left is one of collectivism. And the results in history are destruction. Communism is the epitome of collective philosophy, which is why it's called "communism". It has never worked, and has done nothing but destroy the lives of hundreds of millions of people. Robbed them of freedom. Starved them to death. And you say collectivism is healthy for our society? That's like saying a thimble of arsenic is good for your health.

    It's the entire philosophy I'm questioning. The philosophy of Obama and the far left. When it comes to a person's profits, they are eager to promote collectivism. But when it comes to aborting a baby, it's all about individual freedom.

    So tell me, what is it you want from businesses and business owners? You want us to pay more taxes? Ok, for what purpose? You want me to hire more people than I need? Ok, for what purpose? You want to pay taxes on how much my cattle fart? Ok, for what purpose? You want me to pay taxes on money invested overseas? Ok, for what purpose? Or do you simply want me to bow at the alter of government and give them all the credit for my success?

    Just because there is a road outside, doesn't mean I will be successful. So, let's put a percentage of importance on it. 1% of my success is because the road exists, but 99% of my success is because of me. Not you, not society, not government. Me. Obama is taking credit for something government doesn't provide anyway. WE paid for those roads. WE paid for those bridges. WE paid for that good teacher along the way. It's his narcicisric need to feel important. "look at what I did, I had that road built for everyone to use". Big freakin deal, we paid for it.

    You shouldn't brag about doing your job. It's your job. But his philosophy seeks to convince people that government is just as important in your success as you are. That's BS and you know it. People can do far better for themselves than government ever could.

    Government has a role, but it isn't to help my business succeed. It's a shame so many free minded Americans think that.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    I couldn't disagree with you more. Under our government, and especially THIS administration, businesses succeed DESPITE the government, not BECAUSE of government. I'll give you a prime example. Exxon-Mobil. Do you believe the government slapping their industry with 4000 new regulations, which have the same economic effect as a new tax, is helping them succeed? Absolutely not. But because they provide a valuable good, they succeed despite the government.
    That's the same Exxon Mobil that is jaw-droppingly profitable and pays essentially no US taxes? The same Exxon Mobil that receives billions of dollars in subsidies from the US government? Those poor things!

    Can you cite these alleged 4000 new regulations that are driving them out of business? Pardon me if I question that fantastic number, but as of last October the Obama administration had only approved 613 new federal regulations TOTAL.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    shocked2 Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Hois even worse than ours.w can you blame Obama? The whole world's econom blamersis much worse than ours.Instead, you obama blamers should get down on your knees and pray to your god of choice for giving us such a great president who keept our economy from collasping after bush's administration squandere4d clinton's surplus.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's the same Exxon Mobil that is jaw-droppingly profitable and pays essentially no US taxes? The same Exxon Mobil that receives billions of dollars in subsidies from the US government? Those poor things!

    Can you cite these alleged 4000 new regulations that are driving them out of business? Pardon me if I question that fantastic number, but as of last October the Obama administration had only approved 613 new federal regulations TOTAL.
    THIS Exxon? You have seen this graphic, havent you? For you to continue to propogate misinformation is just dishonest.

    CORPORATE-TAXES.jpg

    If the ACA counts as only one, it has a rather hefty price tag on it.
    Last edited by OpportunityCost; 07-24-12 at 08:16 PM.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by zeusomally View Post
    Please very strongly consider the possibility that you interpreted incorrectly. Obama loves the market economy. He just believes that the government has a very important role in ensuring that more and more people can contribute to it, participate in it, and benefit from it. Not that radical of a concept at all and, indeed, one that has proven its worth for decades in this country.
    You may be surprised by this but I agree that government plays an important role. I also believe in a progressive tax system and a social safety net.

    That being said, I think that Obama has governed 180 degrees differently than the 2004 speech that set him on his way and his campaign of hope and change. Including doing away with the way government worked or better said does not work.

    I am against pitting American against American, even if the people being put down are the most privileged amongst us. I feel that for much of the last four years we have been blaming, Bush, bankers, creditors, the rich ( 250K does not constitute rich in the NE), insurance companies... The list foes on.

    So if this was one blip that stood outside the way he has governed the last 3+ years perhaps I could be persuaded to your side on this. But with the track record of the administration it seems you be a blind Obama loyalist to not see this speech in the totality of his administration.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    THIS Exxon? You have seen this graphic, havent you? For you to continue to propogate misinformation is just dishonest.

    CORPORATE-TAXES.jpg

    If the ACA counts as only one, it has a rather hefty price tag on it.
    As I recall, that's what they paid in worldwide taxes income taxes.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's the same Exxon Mobil that is jaw-droppingly profitable and pays essentially no US taxes? The same Exxon Mobil that receives billions of dollars in subsidies from the US government? Those poor things!

    Can you cite these alleged 4000 new regulations that are driving them out of business? Pardon me if I question that fantastic number, but as of last October the Obama administration had only approved 613 new federal regulations TOTAL.
    More tired leftist rhetoric. Exxon pays more taxes than any other private company in America. Try taking a look at their financials instead of taking MSNBC's word for it. In addition, Exxon receives the same tax breaks as any other company. It is the leftist liars who deem those generic tax breaks that every business can receive as "subsidies".

    The profit margin for oil and gas industry stands at a meager 7%. That's it. They also account for about 8% of the entire GDP of the country. And last year alone, Exxon paid the federal government $86 million dollars PER DAY! About 36 Billion for the year in royalties, bonuses, and corporate taxes. $86 million a day pal. Meanwhile, Exxon received about 1 billion in tax breaks. So the question is "who is subsidizing who?"

    In addition to all that, the government receives more money out of a gallon of gas than the company who brought it all the way to market does. Scabs! They succeed DESPITE the government.

    And the EPA has passed over 4000 new regulations on one industry.....energy. It's even posted on the white house website. It's common knowledge for those who actually read instead of watch CNN.

    Businesses know that Obama is no friend to business. He's a central government collectivist who believes government facilitates success.

    You honestly think he values free market principles? Ha! Then why does he work harder at increasing welfare roles than he does creating jobs? Why is his administration offering a $75,000 reward for anyone who can develop innovative ways to increase welfare roles? Why is he issuing waivers to the work requirement for welfare programs that Clinton signed into law? Why does he increase unemployment benefits out to 99 weeks? None of these things promote individual responsibility. They promote government reliance and entitlement and dependency. Why do idiot liberals like Pelosi believe the best way to stimulate the economy is to increase unemployment benefits? Why do liberals like Maxine Waters suggest the best thing to do would be to "socialize....uh, um, basically, uh take over and run your company"?

    You're not fooling anyone. I know exactly who leftists are. They're just too cowardly to admit what they really are.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    I couldn't disagree with you more. Under our government, and especially THIS administration, businesses succeed DESPITE the government, not BECAUSE of government. I'll give you a prime example. Exxon-Mobil. Do you believe the government slapping their industry with 4000 new regulations, which have the same economic effect as a new tax, is helping them succeed? Absolutely not. But because they provide a valuable good, they succeed despite the government.
    I will not shed a tear for Exxon. They are making record profits. If government regulations are as onerous as you claim then I doubt they would be as successful as they are. My guess is that many of the government regulations you refer to our rather minor and, in fact, quite wise to have in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    I'm speaking about two battling philosophies. Our founders fought for a nation of individual states. Not a nation controlled by a single central government. Read the Constitution. Federal government is strictly limited in it's rights and jurisdiction. All other matters of sovereign authority was granted to the states. They did this for a reason. It established a government, but maintained the crucial philosophy of individualism. States rights, individually. Not collectively.
    Disagree. There has, from day one, been virulent disagreement in American politics between Federalist and Anti-Federalists. This argument is not definitively decided one way or the other in the constitution, despite your desire that it be interpreted as such. We can debate this until we are blue in the face and I am happy to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    The philosophy of the left is one of collectivism. And the results in history are destruction. Communism is the epitome of collective philosophy, which is why it's called "communism". It has never worked, and has done nothing but destroy the lives of hundreds of millions of people. Robbed them of freedom. Starved them to death. And you say collectivism is healthy for our society? That's like saying a thimble of arsenic is good for your health.
    Once again, I can point to a ton of countries which have collectivist/socialist elements to their governments that have been and are successful and I still challenge you to show me one that isn't. And advocating elements of socialism/collectivism in government is NOT the same as advocating Communism, Marxism or, even, Socialism in its purest form. I can point to you many cases in which unregulated Capitalism has also resulted in starvation, misery and failure, but this does not mean that Capitalism is not a valid system. It just means that Capitalism, like Socialism, is a system of governance that can be used for either good or bad, depending upon how it is implemented. I am very comfortable with the idea of implementing them both and so are all of the other socially and economically successful nations on this planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    It's the entire philosophy I'm questioning. The philosophy of Obama and the far left. When it comes to a person's profits, they are eager to promote collectivism. But when it comes to aborting a baby, it's all about individual freedom.

    So tell me, what is it you want from businesses and business owners? You want us to pay more taxes? Ok, for what purpose? You want me to hire more people than I need? Ok, for what purpose? You want to pay taxes on how much my cattle fart? Ok, for what purpose? You want me to pay taxes on money invested overseas? Ok, for what purpose? Or do you simply want me to bow at the alter of government and give them all the credit for my success?
    No, I just want you to quit yelling that Collectivist government cannot coexist with the free market in a positive way. You don't need to bow to anyone. You just need to acknowledge that taxes can be and are put to good use in many(not all, I acknowledge) instances in ways that benefit all members of society, business owners included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    Just because there is a road outside, doesn't mean I will be successful. So, let's put a percentage of importance on it. 1% of my success is because the road exists, but 99% of my success is because of me. Not you, not society, not government. Me. Obama is taking credit for something government doesn't provide anyway. WE paid for those roads. WE paid for those bridges. WE paid for that good teacher along the way. It's his narcicisric need to feel important. "look at what I did, I had that road built for everyone to use". Big freakin deal, we paid for it.
    Obama has taken credit for nothing. He has always and continues to promote individual initiative. All he is pointing out is that it would be destructive for us to destroy the very government and its institutions and policies that have so greatly contributed to all of our success. This is not to say that the government deserves all of the success, just that it has played a very important role and every time that you or someone else yells "I did this all by myself" you are incorrectly downplaying and ignoring how important government is to creating a healthy business environment. And, once again, we are the ones who elect our government and they are not completely independent of us, but a direct extension of our democratic voices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masada View Post
    You shouldn't brag about doing your job. It's your job. But his philosophy seeks to convince people that government is just as important in your success as you are. That's BS and you know it. People can do far better for themselves than government ever could.

    Government has a role, but it isn't to help my business succeed. It's a shame so many free minded Americans think that.
    I do not interpret his policies or words to mean that the government is just as important in your success as you are. If he said something like "The government is 80% responsible for your success" then that would be one thing. All he did was point out that noone ever does anything "all by themselves" without the help of others(government included) and you have taken it to mean that he wants to take credit for you success. I really urge your to consider the fact that you may be being a bit alarmist as to how Obama believes about businesses and individual initiative. He is a capitalist through and through-just one that recognizes that there is a strong and important role for government as well.

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    Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    You may be surprised by this but I agree that government plays an important role. I also believe in a progressive tax system and a social safety net.

    That being said, I think that Obama has governed 180 degrees differently than the 2004 speech that set him on his way and his campaign of hope and change. Including doing away with the way government worked or better said does not work.

    I am against pitting American against American, even if the people being put down are the most privileged amongst us. I feel that for much of the last four years we have been blaming, Bush, bankers, creditors, the rich ( 250K does not constitute rich in the NE), insurance companies... The list foes on.

    So if this was one blip that stood outside the way he has governed the last 3+ years perhaps I could be persuaded to your side on this. But with the track record of the administration it seems you be a blind Obama loyalist to not see this speech in the totality of his administration.
    So if I am blind, please give me specific examples of how his administration has set out to damage the country. I really haven't seen it.
    I am indeed an Obama supporter, but that does not mean that I support everything he has said or done. Nonetheless, I do think he has been handled a huge bag of shytt and has actually managed to have some success in, at least in part, addressing some huge problems we are facing in this nation. HealthCare is the big one for me and if he accomplishes nothing else, this alone will I believe, mark him as a great president once all the dust settles and we begin to see the results through the cloud of all of the alarmist conservative rhetoric on this policy.
    I too am against pitting American against American and I hear the right constantly screaming about Obama fomenting class warfare. Well, I actually believe that class warfare can actually be a bit healthy, especially if one of the classes is stepping on the neck of the other. The rich have been getting richer and their share of the pie is continuing to grow and has been for several decades now. I think middle-class and poor Americans have every right to be ticked off about this. If you want to call this "class warfare" then so be it.

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