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Thread: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

  1. #91
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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Europe simply draws the "shouting fire in a theatre" line in a different place.

    We feel that some views are so repellent and vile they have no place in public discourse.
    Agreed.

    Tolerance towards rabid intolerance doesn't make sense. It's like asking a cannibal to be a good boy and say his prayer before he eats you.

    And Americans shouldn't be on a high horse on that topic. The laws against hate speech in Europe are tame compared to what Americans do with Muslim terror suspects. At least our neo-Nazis get a fair trial and their rights are respected when they get a punishment, we don't let our executive systematically kidnap them from the streets, extralegally detain them, torture them and deny them a lawyer without any court ever being able to rule against it.
    Last edited by German guy; 07-17-12 at 10:47 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Agreed.

    Tolerance towards rabid intolerance doesn't make sense. It's like asking a cannibal to be a good boy and say his prayer before he eats you.

    And Americans shouldn't be on a high horse on that topic. The laws against hate speech in Europe are tame compared to what Americans do with Muslim terror suspects. At least our neo-Nazis get a fair trial and their rights are respected when they get a punishment, we don't let our executive systematically kidnap them from the streets, extralegally detain them, torture them and deny them a lawyer without any court ever being able to rule against it.
    No one is preaching tolerance for intolerance. But acknowledging outlawing ideas doesn't make them go a way, and in many senses, allows them to flourish by going unchallenged. And while I agree our approach towards terror suspects is problematic, to say the least, they are not being prosecuted for simply disseminating unpopular ideas. Like in the above cited case

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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one is preaching tolerance for intolerance. But acknowledging outlawing ideas doesn't make them go a way, and in many senses, allows them to flourish by going unchallenged. And while I agree our approach towards terror suspects is problematic, to say the least, they are not being prosecuted for simply disseminating unpopular ideas. Like in the above cited case
    To some extent, I agree. Probably the German approach to anti-constitutional movements or hate speech is too extreme, it's like cracking a nut with a sledgehammer. Neo-Nazism is a problem, but maybe the excessive legal prosecution gives them more attention than warranted. That way, they get extra attention which maybe even makes them stronger (on very low level). We have a vivid discussion about this topic over here. Many believe it's better to challenge neo-Nazis with arguments, than prosecuting them.

    That said, considering our past, I rather see my legal system err against Nazis, than in favor of them. Let's better play it safe.

    As for the terror suspects extralegally held by the US executives: Many of them are innocent and did nothing at all. Many are just suspects and none of them has ever been proven guilty of anything by any orderly court. If they were guilty of crimes, they could easily be treated by a court. But the executive doesn't allow that, simply because this would inevitably reveal that many of them are innocent.

    These policies strike me as much more questionable and Nazi-like than anything that happens in Europe on the field of hate speech.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    Don't get me wrong, I can fully understand why views evolved differently in western Europe. I just don't agree with it

    PS I agree with much of the criticism lobbed at the us govt in it's approach to terrorism. But some of the policies are driven by politics, as opposed to interests of the state (at least that's my impression as an "insider")

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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I can fully understand why views evolved differently in western Europe. I just don't agree with it

    PS I agree with much of the criticism lobbed at the us govt in it's approach to terrorism. But some of the policies are driven by politics, as opposed to interests of the state (at least that's my impression as an "insider")
    Maybe I overreact a little when it comes to the subject of US anti-terror policies. As a German, I have been bombarded in school with stories how the Nazis were evil and how they cemented their power by slowly taking one right away from the people after the other, and the people applauded, because the Nazis fueled the fear of communist or foreign enemies. You know, Reichstag fire and all that.

    It frightens me a little when I see hardly any American has a problem with these obvious violations of basic human rights by their government. They even cheer when the executive grabs more and more unchecked power, so far they'd diselect any politician who doesn't join the chorus and appears "weak" on terror.

    Certainly Bush was no Hitler, neither is Obama or Romney. But you never know what happens in the future, if and when these practizes persist. That the executive can just grab random people from the street, deny them a fair trial and torture them, without any instance being able to do anything against it ... well, it just calls for abuse.

    In theory, the people should check the government. But in reality, the opposite happens. Even many of those who pay lip service to "small government"* don't seem to be willing to stand against such a blatant violation of the most basic human rights and excessive expansion of executive power.

    (*notable exception: Genuine libertarians. Kudos to them.)
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    lol, try voting in that atmosphere. The worst part is seeing people playing lip service to civil rights, purely out of political interests. It's like "ok, it's politics, and everyone is going to be a c*nt. But do you really need to be that big of a c*nt?"

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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Tolerance towards rabid intolerance doesn't make sense.
    in·tol·er·ant

    adjective /inˈtälərənt/ 

    Not tolerant of views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own



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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    To answer the questions if Nazis are "left" or "right", you first need to define "left" and "right". That's hard to do, but some models are more helpful and have more explanatory power than others.

    Many Americans, especially on the right, seem to believe the spectrum is just one-dimensional, while "right" means small government and "left" means big government. By that definition, the Nazis were certainly "left". But I believe this model is deficient, cannot explain much if anything at all.

    By all other meaningful models to define "left" or "right", the Nazis were clearly far-right. Pre-enlightened authoritarianism supposing humans don't have equal rights? Check. Rabid nationalism/rah rah patriotism? Check. Militarism? Check. Ethnic chauvinism and anti-Semitism? Check. Rejection of liberal democracy? Check. All of this had traditionally been elements of the monarchist conservative right.

    In 19th century Germany, there was a monarchist authoritarian "big government" right against classic liberalism (along the lines of modern libertarianism) on the left. In Weimar Germany, "small government" was centrist - The monarchist conservatives were just as much "big government" as the far left commies. The "right" had always been traditionally anti-democratic and authoritarian in Germany and the Nazis just took this monarchist conservatism to the extreme.

    The one-dimensional spectrum provides no means to explain political philosophies in Germany until 1945 accurately.

    When American right-wingers try to view the situation in Germany pre-1945 through the glasses of modern day political buzzwords, desperately attempting to smear the "librulz", it makes them look silly.
    Very very well said. With respect to liberlasim and the right's charge to "big government"; to use the term with that reference assumes that it is true. The Democratic domestic policy has, since 1929, provided fail-safes and safety nets for people in need: the military is such a safety net and was used to help young men in trouble with law. The idea of these protections being "big government", in my view, is just silly right-wing propoganda.

    The third Reich (empire) was the very definition of big government. It also, as you stated carrried all the elements of todays US right-wing. What we're dealing with here in the case of vendur et al is simply attempts at revisionist history to draw attention away from today's right-wing tactics and ideology. Both the Third Reich and today's right-wing have far more in common with feudalism and fascism than anything the right may pretend to be. One of the first things Nazism embarked on was finding fault with and being the "victims" of some ubiquitous force outside of their patriotic vision for the country. Anderson Cooper Debunks Michele Bachmann Claims Of 'Muslim Extremist' Infiltration Of US Government (VIDEO) Of course, like Himmler's SS, today's right-wing measures true patriotism through the criteria of blind obedience, patriotic "purity", and recognition with a fervent desire to take care of the problems, be active in flushing out problems of course as defined by the right-wing leadership, to be active in supplanting the government with their own people, and keeping up a military front of which the juggernaught will be a proud part as a measure of his or her patriotism.

    Today's corporate feudalism is only stimulated by this distemper with our military playing the part of that bastion of free enterprise in US foreign policy: there being no difference than the Great Plantation of Ulster, or journalist John L O'Sullivan's Manifest Destiny: very much a part of Hitler's design as well.

    The right-wing is of course attempting to redesign FDR as well with teh same ridiclous tactics as outlined above by Anderson Cooper.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    To answer the questions if Nazis are "left" or "right", you first need to define "left" and "right". That's hard to do, but some models are more helpful and have more explanatory power than others.

    Many Americans, especially on the right, seem to believe the spectrum is just one-dimensional, while "right" means small government and "left" means big government. By that definition, the Nazis were certainly "left". But I believe this model is deficient, cannot explain much if anything at all.

    By all other meaningful models to define "left" or "right", the Nazis were clearly far-right. Pre-enlightened authoritarianism supposing humans don't have equal rights? Check. Rabid nationalism/rah rah patriotism? Check. Militarism? Check. Ethnic chauvinism and anti-Semitism? Check. Rejection of liberal democracy? Check. All of this had traditionally been elements of the monarchist conservative right.

    In 19th century Germany, there was a monarchist authoritarian "big government" right against classic liberalism (along the lines of modern libertarianism) on the left. In Weimar Germany, "small government" was centrist - The monarchist conservatives were just as much "big government" as the far left commies. The "right" had always been traditionally anti-democratic and authoritarian in Germany and the Nazis just took this monarchist conservatism to the extreme.

    The one-dimensional spectrum provides no means to explain political philosophies in Germany until 1945 accurately.

    When American right-wingers try to view the situation in Germany pre-1945 through the glasses of modern day political buzzwords, desperately attempting to smear the "librulz", it makes them look silly.
    Clearly, Naziism has elements of both the ideologies of the right and the left. What it really is is extreme authoritarianism, and the polar opposite of libertarianism, not of right wing or left wing.
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    Re: France's National Front to sue Madonna over Le Pen swastika

    Yet it was the left alone who who volunteered to fight the Nazi/fascist threat in Spain in the International Brigades...

    International Brigades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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