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Homeowner Jailed for Hosting Bible Study

Aberration said:
The codes are the violation of someones right to assembly and religion.
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no, the code violations are just that - code violations. it has nothing to do with the intended use of the facility

How is it any different than poll taxes?
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in every way
there is nothing which causes them to be similar

We should not have to jump throw hoops to satisfy those who do not like our assembly, or our religion, or our speech.
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the church which hosts our soup kitchen must comply with all building and zoning regulations
no need to place the congregation/visitors in physical jeopardy only because they are attending a facility now used as a church
 
tessaesque said:
But you don't have the right to violate zoning laws and city code to exercise any other right.

Kind of like needing a permit to arrange a protest on public property, you know.
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Which I personally disagree with*. I read the 1st Amendment as already giving people the right to assemble without the need for a permit. Permits can, and have been, denied, which doesn't neatly jive with the right to peaceably assemble.

Of course, I'm sure the SC disagrees with me. :lol:

I would be ok with requiring notification, so that locals can arrange for crowd control, traffic mitigation, etc., but not the ability to outright deny a protest**.

*- In a general sense, not relating to this specific thread/story.

**- Peaceable protests, marching and chanting and the such. Not dumb-ass crap like scaling bridges and hanging banners, which puts other people in danger. That kind of thing falls under the "can't yell fire in a crowded theater when no fire exists" kind of thing.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Except what you are saying is out of context. It doesn't apply to the Michael Hashem Salam. The man violated a load of civil codes in building a church in his backyard and applied for tax exemptions while claiming that he didn't build a church in his backyard, but rather a building for a few friends to meet which at the same time registering his church's name with the Arizona Corporation Commission and using his home address.

Sound rather confusing as if there might be some double dealing going on? Bingo! It isn't about religion. This convicted felon has a history of trying to game the system.
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I'll suck it up and admit it. The info you have posted regarding this guy's behavior beyond what was limited in the original article has changed my mind. Toward him and his specific situation only. I still believe, in an overall sense, that people should have the right to peaceably assemble on their own property, even if it is 2 nights a week and 20 people, or whatever. But, it seems this guy took it way beyond a simple gathering, and was actually trying to game the system. It seems to me that he was actually trying to game the system to avoid normal taxes and/or costs that would normally be associated with running a church.
 
UtahBill said:
attending church doesn't make you a christian any more than standing in a garage makes you an automobile....

lots of people use churches to scam the gullible public, but even scammers should have to obey the rules designed to protect the rest of the public.
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This off-topic anti-religion public service announcement has been brought to you by...

:roll:
 
Manc Skipper said:
"I'llgiveyousixtofouroddsIcansingbetterthan yoouuu can! I heard that chant a few times...;)
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Or, my personal favorite, "O' feely, O'philey, St. Dominicky, I play dominoes toooooo.."
 
Misterveritis said:
Why aren't you sanctioned for this post? Is this any worse than me saying some village lost its idiot?
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Well, for one reason, the intent of the post was to compliment jamesrage and there was not an iota of malice or ill-intent in a single letter of it.

Second, our mods are smarter than you might be giving them credit for. I would only imagine their response to your "reporting" was probably something like, "WTF???"

But I do not like discussing the working of the forums or mod actions anywhere other than the "Where's My Binky" forum. I might suggest that you do the same or your "villiage idiot" comment may be the least of your troubles here. Just sayin'.

Read the forum rules. Study them. Know them. And maybe you too will be here for over 6 years with over 10k posts too.

Have a great day.
 
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Captain America said:
Well, for one reason, the intent of the post was to compliment jamesrage and there was not an iota of malice or ill-intent in a single letter of it.

Second, our mods are smarter than you might be giving them credit for. I would only imagine their response to your "reporting" was probably something like, "WTF???"

But I do not like discussing the working of the forums or mod actions anywhere other than the "Where's My Binky" forum. I might suggest that you do the same or your "villiage idiot" comment may be the least of your troubles here. Just sayin'.

Read the forum rules. Study them. Know them. And maybe you too will be here for over 6 years with over 10k posts too.

Have a great day.
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I interpreted your post as a compliment to jamesrage also, so it baffled me where the criticism came from.
 
radcen said:
I interpreted your post as a compliment to jamesrage also, so it baffled me where the criticism came from.
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I know, right? I suspect who ever he reported me to knew the same.

Back to topic.

Moving right along.....
 
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jamesrage said:
How many people were parking cars outside his home?
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This was my first thought as well. I'm guessing this started as a feud between him and his neighbors because they were tired of people coming and going all the time and blocking parking near their homes. They got tired of it, got the law involved, and unfortunately the law wasn't on his side here.
 
molten_dragon said:
This was my first thought as well. I'm guessing this started as a feud between him and his neighbors because they were tired of people coming and going all the time and blocking parking near their homes. They got tired of it, got the law involved, and unfortunately the law wasn't on his side here.
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In a nutshell....
 
molten_dragon said:
This was my first thought as well. I'm guessing this started as a feud between him and his neighbors because they were tired of people coming and going all the time and blocking parking near their homes. They got tired of it, got the law involved, and unfortunately the law wasn't on his side here.
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but let's say his property was entirely within building code compliance
would you still believe it right to disallow his Bible study groups because of the crowd of cars and people it attracted to the community?
 
justabubba said:
but let's say his property was entirely within building code compliance
would you still believe it right to disallow his Bible study groups because of the crowd of cars and people it attracted to the community?
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Yes, so long as he'd registered the address as a church, which violates city code and zoning.
 
justabubba said:
but let's say his property was entirely within building code compliance
would you still believe it right to disallow his Bible study groups because of the crowd of cars and people it attracted to the community?
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Depends on the zoning laws.

Personally if some one more or less decided to build something like this next door to my house I would not be happy. I bought my house w/o a Church next door and all that comes with it. Like Parking traffic etc.
 
tessaesque said:
Yes, so long as he'd registered the address as a church, which violates city code and zoning.
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ok, i should have addressed that

let's say his 2000 square foot facility was actually the game room he claimed it to be when he got the building permit ... and that he was absolutely within the code and zoning specs

then, if he continued to hold his weekly Bible study classes (with an estimated attendance of 50) would he have legal sanction to continue despite the presence of lots of cars and non-residents in his community as a result
 
justabubba said:
ok, i should have addressed that

let's say his 2000 square foot facility was actually the game room he claimed it to be when he got the building permit ... and that he was absolutely within the code and zoning specs

then, if he continued to hold his weekly Bible study classes (with an estimated attendance of 50) would he have legal sanction to continue despite the presence of lots of cars and non-residents in his community as a result
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As long as he's following the law I don't really have an issue. I imagine the parking issues might become a nuisance, but as long as they don't disrupt the flow of traffic I don't see an issue.
 
tessaesque said:
But you don't have the right to violate zoning laws and city code to exercise any other right.

Kind of like needing a permit to arrange a protest on public property, you know.
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I think a permit to arrange a protest is BS too, ya know. Permission to exercise my rights? On my own property? Seriously?

I don't see none of that in the Constitution. I see unalienable rights, not granted by the Constitution. We see the mess everyday of what it takes to make laws creative enough to violate those rights, and somehow city codes are going to trump them?

If thats what generations of supposedly great thinkers and politicians and lawyers could come up with, then you all are retards.
 
Captain America said:
Well, for one reason, the intent of the post was to compliment jamesrage and there was not an iota of malice or ill-intent in a single letter of it.

Second, our mods are smarter than you might be giving them credit for. I would only imagine their response to your "reporting" was probably something like, "WTF???"

But I do not like discussing the working of the forums or mod actions anywhere other than the "Where's My Binky" forum. I might suggest that you do the same or your "villiage idiot" comment may be the least of your troubles here. Just sayin'.

Read the forum rules. Study them. Know them. And maybe you too will be here for over 6 years with over 10k posts too.

Have a great day.
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Aw, ain't you special.
So now in addition to your other superpowers you can discern intent. Completely awesome.
Mods stick together.
Understood.
 
How idiotic. He wasn't jailed for hosting a Bible study, he was jailed for violating zoning laws. Yet another case where someone who is clearly in the wrong tries to play the religion card to get out of it.
 
Lokiate said:
This place is predominantly Mexican. If anything is getting stabbed, it's people.
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Completely and utterly racist and wrong to boot. The neighbourhood is upper middle class which as in most places in America doesn't mean there are no Hispanics but they are certainly a minority.With homes costing $500,000. Salman paid $700,000 for his place, I don't think you could the area "ghetto" or "barrio".
 
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