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Homeowner Jailed for Hosting Bible Study

Sherman123 said:
Whether or not it was a code violation is not the point in my mind. The fact that it is considered a code violation at all, and that it's lawful, is troubling.
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Buildings open to large gatherings are subject to rapid egress rules for one thing, possibly sprinklers, etc....IAW fire code.
His homeowners insurance company would likely have a say in the issue as well.
 
Captain America said:
67 code violations. Does it really matter? We are a nation of laws. Religious freedom does not trump the law of the land regardless if the offenders believe they answer to a higher power.

67, count 'em, 67 violations. Really?!?!?
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If, "the law", trumps our constitutional rights, then tyranny is taking hold. I recollect, the whole reason for The Declaration of Independence was cause, "the law", was trampling our God given rights.
 
I wanna know who decided Westboro Baptist was a church? I hope those idiots are at the end of a very long dirt road out in the sticks somewhere.

Hey, everyone here can pick and choose what side they are on relating to this topic. But if this guy was YOUR next door neighbor, you'd be raising hell too.
 
apdst said:
If, "the law", trumps our constitutional rights, then tyranny is taking hold. I recollect, the whole reason for The Declaration of Independence was cause, "the law", was trampling our God given rights.
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Hey apdst, I love ya bro but you picked a losing horse on this one man. Just sayin'.

But the threads just about played out anyways.
 
Sherman123 said:
Whether or not it was a code violation is not the point in my mind. The fact that it is considered a code violation at all, and that it's lawful, is troubling.
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HWat was the violation was it due to parking? running a church on residential property? Noise? some new code made to punish this guy? It does matter what the violations were for.
 
Churches are a HUGE business, ask any Southern Baptist Preacher about that. There are business seminars for churches, they invest in all manner of secular enterprises, from laundry mats to hospitals. Payrolls, tax forms, income and expense reports, even a few embezzlement scandals.

The biggest difference between a Church business and a dry cleaner is the tax status and what forms you fill out. oh and possible health problems from cleaning fumes...
 
Aberration said:
Collect all you want. As long as its not trampling explicitly protected rights.
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Some of the violations are safety violations, which must be addressed, but in all honesty, I don't see a problem with the pastor holding bible studies in his home. I think Maricopa County went overboard in having this man arrested. I also believe that the pastor has a case of the government violating his first amendment rights. In the early days of America, bible studies were frequently held in homes, and this is a fundamental right. As for the number of cars, that argument is irrelevant, since this was not cited as a violation, and the neighbors seemed to have not complained about that.

But bear in mind that this is Arizona, a state that touts individualism and the rights of the people, while working behind the scenes to undermine those rights.

FOX News called it right this time.

Finally, my own personal view is that this is another attempt by a big city to extort money from it's citizens. It's all about the money.
 
Lokiate said:
This place is predominantly Mexican. If anything is getting stabbed, it's people.
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Y'know. Back in my younger days, all the ducktail wearing, greasy haired "cool" kids (think Fonzie) wore these pointed toe, Stacy Adams shoes. They called them "mexican stabbers."

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danarhea said:
Finally, my own personal view is that this is another attempt by a big city to extort money from it's citizens. It's all about the money.
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That much, I will agree with. Thought the same thing myself. But I imagine the city was getting tired of fielding all the complaints as well.
 
Captain America said:
Y'know. Back in my younger days, all the ducktail wearing, greasy haired "cool" kids (think Fonzie) wore these pointed toe, Stacy Adams shoes. They called them "mexican stabbers."

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This place is the reason why I carry a 38 at all times. The Mexican drug game doesn't give a ****. I don't care if people think it's racist or not, that's how it is.
 
Ikari said:
I want to know how many people, that is the key piece of information which is missing.
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I agree. Also missing, do they live out in the boonies or in a neighborhood. Imagine your neighbor doing this, and the traffic and parking situation. It's one of the reasons the city regulates businesses and churches.
 
danarhea said:
But bear in mind that this is Arizona, a state that touts individualism and the rights of the people, while working behind the scenes to undermine those rights.
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Welcome to government. This is what I'll say on this issue. They had a 2000 sqr ft house in their backyard, this is likely very large property away from others. That's an assumption, I do not know. What follows shall be assessment assuming accurate assumption.

It seems to me that this is actually gross exertion of government power against the rights and liberties of the individual. If the man had the space, was far enough way from others, etc. then he has right to assembly, right to religious belief AND expression and must be afforded the free exercise thereof. If the government for no reasonable AND proven reason (meaning they needed a warrant) exerted their force against such exercise, then the government is in the wrong and must be resisted. My gut reaction is that this is unacceptable display of government force.

Now pardon me as I rant. The people arrested are partially at fault. Why? Because they did not control their government. This forms of power grabs are old hat to government, it is the natural flow of government, it is the inherent instinctual driving force of government. Government wants more power and damned the expenses! It is their job and all the People of Arizona to control and regulate their government. You cannot wait until you are thrown in jail to start bitching, it is too late then; you are in jail. You have to research, you have to read, you have to be informed, you have to understand what is going on and be educated on the actions and causes government exerts itself through (with). It is our job to keep this Republic, and you do not keep it by sitting on your ass until government agents break down your door! This is solemn duty and responsibility and we cannot treat it with apathy and lethargy. Let this be a wake up call for all, watch the government. Research, read, understand, extrapolate. We cannot keep this Republic through ignorance, it necessitates an educated, aware, and active populace.
 
Captain America said:
Y'know. Back in my younger days, all the ducktail wearing, greasy haired "cool" kids (think Fonzie) wore these pointed toe, Stacy Adams shoes. They called them "mexican stabbers."

View attachment 67130782
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WTF is a duck tail? I mean besides a tail of a duck.

And don't come back with the cartoon either. I know the cartoon!
 
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Ikari said:
That is a bit disconcerting. If they merely said "It's a church!" there is a big problem with the law. And these people shouldn't be waiting till they get thrown in jail to make a stink about it. It's their duty and responsibility to control their government.
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The problem then would be interpretation. All regulations can and are subject to interpretation by those who are charged with enforcement of them. They were able to cite him with these code violations because they defined his garage as a "church", with what seems to be no other valid reason for the definition except that religious discussions were taking place. They did not have to do that, they chose to. And hitting him with 67 code violations looks more like retaliation for challenging then actual code enforcement.

Again, if the amount of vehicles creates issues in the neighborhood, then that could certainly be addressed without violating this man's property rights.
 
Fishstyx said:
The problem then would be interpretation. All regulations can and are subject to interpretation by those who are charged with enforcement of them. They were able to cite him with these code violations because they defined his garage as a "church", with what seems to be no other valid reason for the definition except that religious discussions were taking place. They did not have to do that, they chose to. And hitting him with 67 code violations looks more like retaliation for challenging then actual code enforcement.

Again, if the amount of vehicles creates issues in the neighborhood, then that could certainly be addressed without violating this man's property rights.
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Well this is why we have trial by a jury of peers.
 
Aberration said:
Only data I need is that people were assembling to exercise speaking on their religion. No other data required.
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So if it was your neighbor they could be on loud speakers with 1,000 people milling about on the front lawn and you would be fine with that?

Every week?

Speaking about Atheism?
 
apdst said:
All the folks making this argument would be nuttin' up if this had been a NAACP meeting, or an Obama campaign meeting.
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You race baiting champ? I guess it's more of that pretending to be black shtick you got going for ya.
 
Hatuey said:
You race baiting champ? I guess it's more of that pretending to be black shtick you got going for ya.
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His counter point is correct if not a tad callous...
 
Bodhisattva said:
His counter point is correct if not a tad callous...
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His counterpoint to what? Obama doesn't have weekly Bible meetings with 40 people at his house and the NAACP has meetings at arenas designated for such matters. And please don't start comparing campaign stops to this. You'll look hyperbolic at best and ridiculous at worst.
 
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Hey, if one on my neighbors had a wedding reception, a funeral gathering or even a Super Bowl party with 50 guests, I would loan them my folding tables.

But if they did it EVERY week, we'd have some serious neighborly issues.
 
Captain America said:
You caught that too?
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A person would have to be a total retard to not catch it. The best part is that he'll complain and go "it's cause I'm a black conservative ain't it!" - as if Blackdog didn't exist. apdst is kind of like those white kids who pretend they're black when they're like 17 and listen to DMX. The only difference is that apdst is a grown man and still pretends for a far dumber reason. He knows if he voices his opinion as the white guy he is, he'll be called racist. So he pretends to be black in hopes we wont catch it.
 
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