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Taliban shoot woman 9 times in public execution as men cheer

Luna Tick said:
I don't know enough about the deep details of Islam to comment, but I can say this. I have friends from Indonesia who are Muslim, and the last thing any of them would ever do is support violence against anyone for being Jewish or Christian or American or Israeli. They're as far from being terrorists as you can get. I suspect the hostility and violent tendencies may vary from one Islamic country to another.
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Sure. But even if we use Indonesia as a template that anecdote doesn't really hold up in terms of some of the generalizing points I'm trying to make. Indonesia is different from Saudi Arabia no question, but Indonesia for all of its advances with democracy is still plagued by the problems we are talking about, and I believe it is for the reasons I mentioned.
 
Misterveritis said:
Are you an isolationist then? Do you believe that the US should withdraw from the rest of the world lest someone else decide they can murder our citizens to advance their political and religious purposes?
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You do realize while we are at war right now terrorist recruitment has gone up, more and more terrorists are being produced, more and more innocents are dying from terrorism, and that by invading Afghanistan we pretty much did what Bin Laden wanted us to do?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
You do realize while we are at war right now terrorist recruitment has gone up, more and more terrorists are being produced, more and more innocents are dying from terrorism, and that by invading Afghanistan we pretty much did what Bin Laden wanted us to do?
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I disagree with that rather strongly on a variety of levels. First that more international terrorists are being produced. Second that Bin Laden ended up getting what he wanted (even if originally he thought it was). There are thirds, fourths, and fifths of course but I think this is enough for now.
 
Sherman123 said:
I disagree with that rather strongly on a variety of levels. First that more international terrorists are being produced. Second that Bin Laden ended up getting what he wanted (even if originally he thought it was). There are thirds, fourths, and fifths of course but I think this is enough for now.
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1.) Iraq an example. Iraq has never had a suicide bombing attack before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Iraq now has the record for most suicide bombings in a country. Hell for the month of June they averaged one a day.
2.)These reports show that terrorism recruitment has skyrocketed and the invasions has became a breeding ground and a calling card for terrorist rectuiment.
The Post-Madrid Face of Al Qaeda
The Iraq Effect: War has increased terrorism sevenfold worldwide - STWR - Share The World's Resources
Iraq 101: The Iraq Effect - The War in Iraq and Its Impact on the War on Terrorism - Pg. 1 | Mother Jones
Occupation Made World Less Safe, Pro-War Institute Says

3.)Bin Ladens goal was to create a quagmire in the middle east and for the US to invade Arab lands so he could exploit this as a tool for a call to "global jihad on the west", and to bankrupt the US via a war, this is all very well known
 
Sherman123 said:
It is riven with difficulties, but certainly it is. Especially when compared to rule under Saddam.
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To call Iraq a "free state" is hysteical. Im not saying it was "free" under Saddam but to call it "free" now is a pathetic use of the word freedom.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
1.) Iraq an example. Iraq has never had a suicide bombing attack before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Iraq now has the record for most suicide bombings in a country. Hell for the month of June they averaged one a day.
2.)These reports show that terrorism recruitment has skyrocketed and the invasions has became a breeding ground and a calling card for terrorist rectuiment.
The Post-Madrid Face of Al Qaeda
The Iraq Effect: War has increased terrorism sevenfold worldwide - STWR - Share The World's Resources
Iraq 101: The Iraq Effect - The War in Iraq and Its Impact on the War on Terrorism - Pg. 1 | Mother Jones
Occupation Made World Less Safe, Pro-War Institute Says

3.)Bin Ladens goal was to create a quagmire in the middle east and for the US to invade Arab lands so he could exploit this as a tool for a call to "global jihad on the west", and to bankrupt the US via a war, this is all very well known
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Firstly of course there were difficulties and abject failures when it came to instituting and securing the new democracy in Iraq. But my contention is that the US has created new terrorists. There is a great deal of sociological and psychological evidence that has been assembled that indicates that those who resort to internationalist terrorism and suicide bombings come from a limited pool, and that one of the reasons we ended up successful after the Surge was because we had exhausted the supply of recruits to those organizations. Larry Schweikart has a good book on this, and I'll also provide a report to the LoC: http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/Soc_Psych_of_Terrorism.pdf. Secondly the point is logical in that as we inflict greater casualties we reduce the recruitment pool. Thirdly with regard to the insurgent activity in Iraq this is decoupled from the terrorist point, as it deals with sectarian, irredentist, and other domestic political actors. We failed in our job to properly transition the Iraqi government in 2003, but that is a separate issue. As for Bin Laden we have done a fantastic job of crippling his organization and driving Islamist groups back on virtually all fronts, international Islamist terrorism has certainly been on the decline in terms of activities, existing networks, operatives, etc.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
To call Iraq a "free state" is hysteical. Im not saying it was "free" under Saddam but to call it "free" now is a pathetic use of the word freedom.
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It has many problems, but it is freer and it is on the path towards that. How the Tariq issue is handled will speak volumes about the future of Iraq.
 
Luna Tick said:
I don't know enough about the deep details of Islam to comment, but I can say this. I have friends from Indonesia who are Muslim, and the last thing any of them would ever do is support violence against anyone for being Jewish or Christian or American or Israeli. They're as far from being terrorists as you can get. I suspect the hostility and violent tendencies may vary from one Islamic country to another.
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Ask your pacifist Islamist buddies if they support the one percent who will bring Islam to the world by subjugating the unbelievers. I think the majority will agree with the one-percent. They just don't want to get their hands dirty slitting throats and cutting off heads themselves. But they do support the goal. And they do support the violence. What is it called, Dhimmitude? Dhimmitude - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Bat Ye'or defined dhimmitude as the condition and experience of those who are subject to dhimma, and thus not synonymous to, but rather a subset of the dhimma phenomenon: "dhimmitude [...] represents a behavior dictated by fear (terrorism), pacifism when aggressed, rather than resistance, servility because of cowardice and vulnerability. [...] By their peaceful surrender to the Islamic army, they obtained the security for their life, belongings and religion, but they had to accept a condition of inferiority, spoliation and humiliation. As they were forbidden to possess weapons and give testimony against a Muslim, they were put in a position of vulnerability and humility."[10] The term plays a key role in the Islamophobic[11] conspiracy theory of Eurabia.[12]
In his book, The Third Choice: Islam, Dhimmitude, and Freedom, scholar of religion Mark Durie contends that instead of a "hardening of resolve", Western attitudes in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks consisted of "widespread capitulation to Muslim demands" to the detriment of public policy, human rights, and free speech. Among other things, Durie cites various statements praising Islam by politicians such as Barack Obama, Nicolas Sarkozy and Mary Robinson; statements by Western politicians in support of Sharia law; and other statements of "humility" by Christian leaders as evidence of "dhimmitude".[13]
A more recent pejorative usage variant of "dhimmi" and "dhimmitude" divorces the words from the historical context and applies them to situations where non-Muslims in the West and India are championing Islamic causes above others. "Dhimmi" is treated as analogous to "Quisling" within this context.[citation needed]​
 
TheDemSocialist said:
You do realize while we are at war right now terrorist recruitment has gone up, more and more terrorists are being produced, more and more innocents are dying from terrorism, and that by invading Afghanistan we pretty much did what Bin Laden wanted us to do?
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Does it matter? There are more pirates in Somalia too. Are you proposing capitulation instead of resolve?
Do you prefer murder over justice and freedom?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
:lamo:lamo:lamo:lamo
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This reveals a great deal more about you than it does about me.
First, you do not recognize freedom when you see it.
Second, unless it matches your template you are unable to see beginnings.
Third, it highlights your biases.
Fourth, it highlights your ignorance.
 
Sparky said:
I'm sorry but I thought ALL LIBERALS are immature, dogmatic leftists that supports Islamism and hates all jews and christians.
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Perhaps you have only encountered those who play the same silly little partisan game as you?
 
lizzie said:
Their culture is highly based on their religion. Once they reach the point collectively that they can internalize their religion, rather than relying on it to dictate to them how they are to perform every aspect of their daily living actions, they will have made a significant step in progress.
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Yes and no. A lot of what people interpret as Islam is in fact a cultural norm that was integrated into their belief system. They need to be brought into the 21st century. I don't see that happening for many places any time soon.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
To call Iraq a "free state" is hysteical. Im not saying it was "free" under Saddam but to call it "free" now is a pathetic use of the word freedom.
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You have to take into account their culture and religion, relative to what freedom is. If you've been living under a dictatorship for decades, and your religion dictates that authoritarianism is normal, and to be expected, then the slightest movement to the left of what you know, is freedom. If you've been in prison for years, then get parolled, and moved to a halfway house, then you are relatively free. It depends on what you know as a way of life. Your definition of freedom doesn't much matter to those living in Iraq, as they have no western democracy in their history to compare it to. You can't go into a country such as Iraq, and make them *free*, as they don't think from your pov. In fact, trying to give someone else freedom can easily be counterproductive, as it takes away some of the structure and familiarity that they depend on for stability.
 
NameGoesHere said:
Yes and no. A lot of what people interpret as Islam is in fact a cultural norm that was integrated into their belief system. They need to be brought into the 21st century. I don't see that happening for many places any time soon.
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They need to bring themselves in. Nothing else will make it an authentic progressive move.
 
Luna Tick said:
I don't know enough about the deep details of Islam to comment, but I can say this. I have friends from Indonesia who are Muslim, and the last thing any of them would ever do is support violence against anyone for being Jewish or Christian or American or Israeli. They're as far from being terrorists as you can get. I suspect the hostility and violent tendencies may vary from one Islamic country to another.
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Indonesia is considered one of the more moderate Islamic states, but even that country returns some alarming polling data

In the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed, views of Jews are largely unfavorable. Nearly all in Jordan (97%), the Palestinian territories (97%) and Egypt (95%) hold an unfavorable view. Similarly, 98% of Lebanese express an unfavorable opinion of Jews, including 98% among both Sunni and Shia Muslims, as well as 97% of Lebanese Christians. By contrast, only 35% of Israeli Arabs express a negative opinion of Jews, while 56% voice a favorable opinion.

Negative views of Jews are also widespread in the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed in Asia: More than seven-in-ten in Pakistan (78%) and Indonesia (74%) express unfavorable opinions. A majority in Turkey (73%) also hold a critical view....


...Negative views of Christians are common in Pakistan, where 61% hold an unfavorable opinion. Indonesians are divided: many (43%) express an unfavorable opinion of Christians, while just as many (45%) voice the opposite favorable view. Overall, only one-in-five (21%) in Nigeria express a negative view of Christians. However, nearly four-in-ten (39%) Nigerian Muslims hold this opinion.
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Chapter 3. Views of Religious Groups | Pew Global Attitudes Project

and the figures showing support for violence are rather high
When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.
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Muslim Publics Divided on Hamas and Hezbollah | Pew Global Attitudes Project

Also, if your friends are immigrants, then that isn't exactly the best indicator to judge the general population by
 
Mya said:
It may be a sin to commit suicide under Islam, but it seems that suicide bombers are given a special dispensation by the sponsoring Islamic States.
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What/who qualifies as an Islamic state?
 
lizzie said:
You have to take into account their culture and religion, relative to what freedom is. If you've been living under a dictatorship for decades, and your religion dictates that authoritarianism is normal, and to be expected, then the slightest movement to the left of what you know, is freedom. If you've been in prison for years, then get parolled, and moved to a halfway house, then you are relatively free. It depends on what you know as a way of life. Your definition of freedom doesn't much matter to those living in Iraq, as they have no western democracy in their history to compare it to. You can't go into a country such as Iraq, and make them *free*, as they don't think from your pov. In fact, trying to give someone else freedom can easily be counterproductive, as it takes away some of the structure and familiarity that they depend on for stability.
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1 Iraq had a parliamentary democracy until the 1950s, whereas Francisco Franco was killing people for not attending mass in the 1930s. 2 Islam mandates 'consultation' between rulers and ruled. This, while not endorsing democracy as we would understand it goes far further then any other mainstream religion. IMO we need to look far further to explain the disfunctionality in the region.

Edit: and oh yes, i think public executions are bad.
 
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TheDemSocialist said:
It is a peaceful religion. The actual text speaks of peace like the bible. But unfortunatly any religion can be turend on its head to justify acts like these.
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We need to stop sugar coating this stuff...it happens WAY TO OFTEN to not be inbred in those societies...honor killings...killing your own children...its endless....and the more we say Oh its a peaceful religion...the worse it gets...it is NOT peaceful the majority of them are proven not peaceful and we need to acknowledge that for it to change....I have to admit I get pissed at people that make excuse after excuse for muslims and condemn anything christian or jewish....lets get this right please....can we for once identify which religion is our real enemy and stop kissin their arse
 
lpast said:
We need to stop sugar coating this stuff...it happens WAY TO OFTEN to not be inbred in those societies...honor killings...killing your own children...its endless.e
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Show me an example of this prior to the mujaheddin uprising. Afghanistan was once a net exporter of wine.

lpast said:
and the more we say Oh its a peaceful religion...the worse it gets.
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Every time you say "Islam is a peaceful religion" a fairy gets honor killed.

lpast said:
.it is NOT peaceful the majority of them are proven not peaceful and we need to acknowledge that for it to change....I have to admit I get pissed at people that make excuse after excuse for muslims and condemn anything christian or jewish....lets get this right please....can we for once identify which religion is our real enemy and stop kissin their ars
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Presumably if honor killings had majority support this would be reflected electorally. Why do you think so few people in Pakistan and Bangladesh vote for Jamat?
 
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Misterveritis said:
Ask your pacifist Islamist buddies if they support the one percent who will bring Islam to the world by subjugating the unbelievers. I think the majority will agree with the one-percent. They just don't want to get their hands dirty slitting throats and cutting off heads themselves. But they do support the goal. And they do support the violence. What is it called, Dhimmitude?
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I usually just ignore you, but you are aware, even if your assumption about a majority is correct (I personal feel you are wrong), that doesn't necessarily dictate that every Muslim you encounter is a closet jihadi?
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
I usually just ignore you, but you are aware, even if your assumption about a majority is correct (I personal feel you are wrong), that doesn't necessarily dictate that every Muslim you encounter is a closet jihadi?
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Also bear in mind that Dhimmitude was a protected status exempting Christians and Jews from military conscription and the taxes that Muslims had to pay.
 
Red_Dave said:
Show me an example of this prior to the mujaheddin uprising. Afghanistan was once a net exporter of wine.
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wasn't the instigation of the uprising in the 30's at the behest of the monarch trying to expand his power outside the urban centers, and challenge the control exerted by the local clerics?

Presumably if honor killings had majority support this would be reflected electorally. Why do you think so few people in Pakistan and Bangladesh vote for Jamat?
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as pointed out in an earlier thread, why people choose who they do, in elections, tend to be a complicated process (as in, maybe they vote on economic concerns, despite their religious views). Also, while Bangladesh is some creeping issues, I believe it's considered one of the more islamic states (the same can't be said for Pakistan)
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
wasn't the instigation of the uprising in the 30's at the behest of the monarch trying to expand his power outside the urban centers, and challenge the control exerted by the local clerics?
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No it started when feudal landlords and allied fundamentalists tried to overthrow the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan with the help of the C.I.A
 
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