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California Senate vote keeps bullet train alive(edited)

Re: California bullet train still a go

A Field Poll conducted in November 2011 says that 64% of Californians want the opportunity for a re-vote. Furthermore, 59% of those voters say that they would reject the plan, if they could vote on it again. Of those who voted for Proposition 1A in 2008, 37% said they would now vote against it.[10] The poll was conducted from November 15-27, 2011 among a random sample of 1,000 registered voters in California.[11]

California Proposition 1A, High-Speed Rail Act (2008) - Ballotpedia
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What they're doing isn't what the people voted on. 64% want the opportunity to re-vote since the plan has changed so much. The Democrats control Sacramento, if they insist on forcing this down the throats of California taxpayers when the plan is so obviously different from what we voted on the Democrats just may find themselves in the minority party come Jan 2013 and Jerry Browndoggle fathering California's second tax revolt. it was crap just like this that brought about Prop 13.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Harry Guerrilla said:
So it's a good idea, for a place that has serious revenue and debt issues, to build a train system that will add to those revenue and debt issues, because Japan and some other countries did it?
Is that really your thought process?
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It depends on the support the project gets. If it is run like AMTRAK where failure is the desired result and funding is restricted to make sure of it, then no. If it is treated as an asset and becomes a showpiece for what high speed rail can do then yes it will be worth the jobs it creates. Of course you'll say it will fail, just like Apollo 11 would have failed had we had nothing but naysayers bent on making failure of everything Govt. a self-fulfilling prophecy back in 1969. Thank God you all were not born yet
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

If it went 500mph I'd ride it. Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather just fly.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

iguanaman said:
It depends on the support the project gets. If it is run like AMTRAK where failure is the desired result and funding is restricted to make sure of it, then no. If it is treated as an asset and becomes a showpiece for what high speed rail can do then yes it will be worth the jobs it creates. Of course you'll say it will fail, just like Apollo 11 would have failed had we had nothing but naysayers bent on making failure of everything Govt. a self-fulfilling prophecy back in 1969. Thank God you all were not born yet
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Don't even try to compare this **** project to the Space Program.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

iguanaman said:
It depends on the support the project gets. If it is run like AMTRAK where failure is the desired result and funding is restricted to make sure of it, then no. If it is treated as an asset and becomes a showpiece for what high speed rail can do then yes it will be worth the jobs it creates. Of course you'll say it will fail, just like Apollo 11 would have failed had we had nothing but naysayers bent on making failure of everything Govt. a self-fulfilling prophecy back in 1969. Thank God you all were not born yet
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You do understand that these comparisons are completely without merit.
Apollo 11 had a clear scientific mission, the only failure of it, would likely be mechanical or design.

Profiling me isn't wise.
I'm not some conservative or libertarian idiot that preaches talking points.

HSR has many problems, especially this specific line.
Many of these mass transit projects divert highway funds, that are needed for road maintenance.
This specific line, has the most idiotic plot points, servicing a very narrow group of people.
The destinations are outside of two major cities, requiring further transportation planning by the individuals riding it, whether it be taxi, rental car or another type of mass transit, to actually reach the city.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Lokiate said:
Don't even try to compare this **** project to the Space Program.
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why do you find that objectionable?
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Lokiate said:
Because the space program was a huge step forward for mankind as a whole. He may as well be comparing walmart to the Macedonian empire.
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ok. i understand you

when i saw the reference, i thought it appropriate, because the comparison to the space program was apt
back then, many resisted putting money in outer space because they insisted that there were so many things on earth which deserved to be funded, instead
notice how that comparison is a valid one when contrasting it with the high speed rail project
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

justabubba said:
ok. i understand you

when i saw the reference, i thought it appropriate, because the comparison to the space program was apt
back then, many resisted putting money in outer space because they insisted that there were so many things on earth which deserved to be funded, instead
notice how that comparison is a valid one when contrasting it with the high speed rail project
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The problem with the comparison is that the Space Program didn't just put some guys in space, it changed everything. Theory, physics, intellectual pursuit, and continues to bring forth an endless amount of new and wonderful possibilities. The best a train can do is move people around, and give some people jobs.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Lokiate said:
The problem with the comparison is that the Space Program didn't just put some guys in space, it changed everything. Theory, physics, intellectual pursuit, and continues to bring forth an endless amount of new and wonderful possibilities. The best a train can do is move people around, and give some people jobs.
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you are preaching to the converted
the space program - the opportunity to be a part of it - was the very reason i got my aerospace engineering degree

but you are looking at it with the benefit of hindsight
at the time JFK proposed a program to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade, there were LOTS of naysayers
and their typical refrain was that there were too many other - earthbound - uses for the money that was about to be spent by NASA
and we see that with today's high speed rail project. the same nay saying goes on with the same - ever present excuse - the money could be better spent elsewhere
that is why the comparison is found - by me, anyway - to be quite appropriate
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

justabubba said:
you are preaching to the converted
the space program - the opportunity to be a part of it - was the very reason i got my aerospace engineering degree

but you are looking at it with the benefit of hindsight
at the time JFK proposed a program to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade, there were LOTS of naysayers
and their typical refrain was that there were too many other - earthbound - uses for the money that was about to be spent by NASA
and we see that with today's high speed rail project. the same nay saying goes on with the same - ever present excuse - the money could be better spent elsewhere
that is why the comparison is found - by me, anyway - to be quite appropriate
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I don't think we actually disagree on this.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Will the bullet trains be built in America? The tracks in this state aren't in good shape. How will they handle bullet trains?
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

For all those chomping at the bit to see empty high speed trains running from Fresno to Bakersfield, you'll be disappointed. Fresno to Bakersfield is the first operational/test segment, not the first revenue segment. High speed passenger trains won't run until the track is extended south to Los Angeles. In the meantime it will be used by Amtrak trains to shave an hour off the journey, separate passenger from freight operations, and test trains at 220 mph (which you can't do on the peninsula).

As for precedent, look back to the interstate highway system. The first signed contract for interstate highway work was for a section of interstate near Lebanon, MO...what is now I-44. That segment was largely worthless on its own, was no draw for commercial trucking or cross country travelers. But it was used sparingly until the highway was complete, connecting St. Louis to Springfield, Tulsa and Oklahoma City.



As for the need, the population of California is growing rapidly, expected to approach 60M by 2050, from 37M today. Simply put, current capacity will not handle future demand. I foresee four options:

1) Build HSR for X dollars
2) Expand airports and highways to the same capacity for 2X dollars
3) Rezone CA-99 and I-5 as parking facilities
4) Start sterilizing women

It's clear to me which is preferable.
 
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Re: California bullet train still a go

TitusAndronicus said:
For all those chomping at the bit to see empty high speed trains running from Fresno to Bakersfield, you'll be disappointed. Fresno to Bakersfield is the first operational/test segment, not the first revenue segment. High speed passenger trains won't run until the track is extended south to Los Angeles. In the meantime it will be used by Amtrak trains to shave an hour off the journey, separate passenger from freight operations, and test trains at 220 mph (which you can't do on the peninsula).

As for precedent, look back to the interstate highway system. The first signed contract for interstate highway work was for a section of interstate near Lebanon, MO...what is now I-44. That segment was largely worthless on its own, was no draw for commercial trucking or cross country travelers. But it was used sparingly until the highway was complete, connecting St. Louis to Springfield, Tulsa and Oklahoma City.

As for the need, the population of California is growing rapidly, expected to approach 60M by 2050, from 37M today. Simply put, current capacity will not handle future demand. I foresee four options:

1) Build HSR for X dollars
2) Expand Airports and highways to the same capacity for 2X dollars
3) Rezone CA-99 and I-5 as parking facilities
4) Start sterilizing women

It's clear to me which is preferable.
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OK now can you help us with the math by giving us the numbers used in numbers 1 and 2.

On another point how long did it take to build the section of I-44 you are talking about and then how much longer for the rest of the road. Then can you give us the latest estimate of when this test section will be completed and then when the SF to LA line will be operational.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Albert Di Salvo said:
Will the bullet trains be built in America? The tracks in this state aren't in good shape. How will they handle bullet trains?
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washunut said:
OK now can you help us with the math by giving us the numbers used in numbers 1 and 2.

On another point how long did it take to build the section of I-44 you are talking about and then how much longer for the rest of the road. Then can you give us the latest estimate of when this test section will be completed and then when the SF to LA line will be operational.
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When the initial HSR proposal was being considered, a cost study was prepared to calculate how much capacity extra lanes would provide for the full length of the valley, and their cost, as well as that for expanding airports to fill in the gap. The cost of HSR was about half of highways and runways. HSR costs have gone up, but so has the cost of asphalt (oil) and other highway construction materials.

I don't know how long it took to complete I-44, but it took 35 years to complete the system. For much of this time, interstate highways were more dashed line than continuous.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Albert Di Salvo said:
Will the bullet trains be built in America? The tracks in this state aren't in good shape. How will they handle bullet trains?
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Yes built here but by foreign companies who have the technology since we took a pass on trains a long time ago.
Highspeed trains will require a new track to handle the speed, grade crossings will be eliminated too. Like this 200MPH French TGV line completed in 2007.
Notice the track is electrified and France gets 80% of their power from nuclear sources. Are they are so far ahead of us in efficiency that you want to just give up?
train300,0.jpg
 
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Re: California bullet train still a go

TitusAndronicus said:
When the initial HSR proposal was being considered, a cost study was prepared to calculate how much capacity extra lanes would provide for the full length of the valley, and their cost, as well as that for expanding airports to fill in the gap. The cost of HSR was about half of highways and runways. HSR costs have gone up, but so has the cost of asphalt (oil) and other highway construction materials.

I don't know how long it took to complete I-44, but it took 35 years to complete the system. For much of this time, interstate highways were more dashed line than continuous.
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Well you certainly did NOT respond with current data, wonder why??? Inflation is around 2%, oil prices are dropping, you care to tell us how much the cost is expected to increase. That is if it is ever completed, which is doubtful as many farmers and environmental groups will tie this up in court for years if not decades.

I did not know that the highway system was only completed around 1990. You are saying to hook up the road from where ever to St. Louis took that long. I think your nose is growing, much like Mr. T who liked your semi-response so much.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

washunut said:
Well you certainly did NOT respond with current data, wonder why???
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I know why! It's because in between my two most recent posts I didn't bother spend thousands of dollars to conduct and validate a scientific study to compare the current costs of HSR and highways, and had to settle for data that is ~6 years old.

washunut said:
Inflation is around 2%, oil prices are dropping, you care to tell us how much the cost is expected to increase.
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This is what the state of Washington has to say about its building costs.

Since 2002 the cost of:
Hot mix asphalt has more than doubled
Diesel fuel has tripled
Asphalt binder has more than tripled
Crude oil has nearly quadrupled

If you think oil prices are heading down in the long run, I have a 130 year old bridge in NY to sell you.


washunut said:
I did not know that the highway system was only completed around 1990. You are saying to hook up the road from where ever to St. Louis took that long.
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I looked up I-44. Construction began in 1953 (Turner Turnpike) and the closest I have to an end date is 1982. 29 years.

I-10 wasn't completed until 1990. I-90 wasn't complete until 1991. The original system is considered to have been completed in 1992 (I-70 finished). These things take time.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

iguanaman said:
Yes built here but by foreign companies who have the technology since we took a pass on trains a long time ago.
Highspeed trains will require a new track to handle the speed, grade crossings will be eliminated too. Like this 200MPH French TGV line completed in 2007.
Notice the track is electrified and France gets 80% of their power from nuclear sources. Are they are so far ahead of us in efficiency that you want to just give up?
train300,0.jpg
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Oh so Americans don't know nothin' about no 'lectricity or them train tracks cause we hadn't been res'chin' it.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

TitusAndronicus said:
When the initial HSR proposal was being considered, a cost study was prepared to calculate how much capacity extra lanes would provide for the full length of the valley, and their cost, as well as that for expanding airports to fill in the gap. The cost of HSR was about half of highways and runways. HSR costs have gone up, but so has the cost of asphalt (oil) and other highway construction materials.

I don't know how long it took to complete I-44, but it took 35 years to complete the system. For much of this time, interstate highways were more dashed line than continuous.
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Well if you Globalist hadn't given all the jobs to Communist China and Corrupt Mexico than this wouldn't have been a problem.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Lokiate said:
The problem with the comparison is that the Space Program didn't just put some guys in space, it changed everything. Theory, physics, intellectual pursuit, and continues to bring forth an endless amount of new and wonderful possibilities. The best a train can do is move people around, and give some people jobs.
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"new and wonderful possibilities"

"just moves people around."

"moves people around" > "possibilities"

"moving people around" actually is something concrete and real

"possibilities" is something that doesn't exist
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Matt Foley said:
"new and wonderful possibilities"

"just moves people around."

"moves people around" > "possibilities"

"moving people around" actually is something concrete and real

"possibilities" is something that doesn't exist
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Way to focus on a tree in the forest.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

justabubba said:
ok. i understand you

when i saw the reference, i thought it appropriate, because the comparison to the space program was apt
back then, many resisted putting money in outer space because they insisted that there were so many things on earth which deserved to be funded, instead
notice how that comparison is a valid one when contrasting it with the high speed rail project
Click to expand...

That some folks believed the Space Program money not-well-spent would be the only comparison. That there will always be naysayers seems a very weak basis for comparative "I told you so's".

Agree or disagree at that time, the space program had tentacles of technological advancement that reached far and wide. The benefits that we each reap almost hourly from things in space now, or technologies advanced on the ground, is mind-boggling in scope.

This HSR brings none of that to the table. It will inspire virtually no new industry. Its value lies soley in whether it will be a prudent investment in addressing transportation needs. All surveys say "No". I would argue that this thread is full of common sense that says "No".

Regardless, comparison to the space program was very weak.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

Eighty Deuce said:
That some folks believed the Space Program money not-well-spent would be the only comparison. That there will always be naysayers seems a very weak basis for comparative "I told you so's".

Agree or disagree at that time, the space program had tentacles of technological advancement that reached far and wide. The benefits that we each reap almost hourly from things in space now, or technologies advanced on the ground, is mind-boggling in scope.

This HSR brings none of that to the table. It will inspire virtually no new industry. Its value lies soley in whether it will be a prudent investment in addressing transportation needs. All surveys say "No". I would argue that this thread is full of common sense that says "No".

Regardless, comparison to the space program was very weak.
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What surveys are these? The economic studies I've seen all show that the completed project will have a very large plus-side impact.
 
Re: California bullet train still a go

AdamT said:
What surveys are these? The economic studies I've seen all show that the completed project will have a very large plus-side impact.
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all one has to do to project the resulting development is to look at how development has followed the construction of other mass transit infrastructure in the USA and elsewhere
 
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