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Can the states by themselves now unravel ObamaCare?

No states are seriously going to hold out and NOT agree to the Medicaid expansion. Remember that the Supreme Court made its ruling less than a week ago; the threats to not participate were most likely just some pissed off Republican governors blowing off steam. Any governor would have to be an idiot to not participate in the expansion; they get free federal money for the first couple years, and the federal government still picks up 90% of the tab after the first few years. That's an insanely good deal for the states...and the governors can't really afford NOT to take it. It's an even better deal for the states that already have stingy Medicaid programs (i.e. the red states), because the federal government pays the total cost of bringing them up from wherever they are now, to the new federal level.

Sure, there might be a couple governors in states that really hate Obama who will resist for a couple years. But that won't last long. The voters will force them to participate, and/or the health care providers will lobby them to participate.

Never underestimate the partisan stupidity of a tea party governor, my friend. My governor (Scott of Florida) has ALREADY turned down several billion dollars to build a high speed rail line that was going to require virtually no money from the state. I fully expect him to follow through on his promise to opt out of Medicaid expansion, despite the fact that he is a former hospital corp. executive and knows full well that it would save hospitals billions and billions of dollars. I reckon that by the time he's voted out of office he will have pissed away more federal funding than any governor in history.
 
No, I'm not wrong. For the first three years the federal government will finance 100% of the Medicade expansion. After that states will only pay 10% of the cost. So if a state opts out, it will be turning down tens of billions of dollars in federal aid that would go to providing health care to the working poor -- thus taking pressure off hospitals and clinics that now have to eat those costs.

You just do not get it do you? They are NOT now on medicaid, so unless they have a life threatening emergency they CAN BE and ARE denied any free ER care. You don't get free ER care unless you can convince them that you NEED IT NOW, after you get on medicaid MONEY comes with that care so all the care that the poor ask for is then given FOR FEDERAL TAX MONEY. I imagine, yet can not prove, that a doctor is happy to give a placebo pill or fake X-ray to get some free federal medicare money for "treating" some poor moron that simply likes seeing doctors.

So, the state gets NOTHING except longer lines at all care facilities that these new medicaid patients choose to visit. Even RomneyCare did not reduce ER use, as all claimed that it would.
 
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Never underestimate the partisan stupidity of a tea party governor, my friend. My governor (Scott of Florida) has ALREADY turned down several billion dollars to build a high speed rail line that was going to require virtually no money from the state. I fully expect him to follow through on his promise to opt out of Medicaid expansion, despite the fact that he is a former hospital corp. executive and knows full well that it would save hospitals billions and billions of dollars. I reckon that by the time he's voted out of office he will have pissed away more federal funding than any governor in history.

Do you realize that they may reject the program, because of very expensive future costs.
The same rational was applied to a worthless HSR line.
 
If the recalcitrant states stick by their guns, Obamacare will easily become a thing of the past by 2014. And here is how.

"If states decide to neither expand Medicaid nor set up health care exchanges, these acts would effectively block most if not all of ObamaCare's new entitlement spending."


Several authorities have pointed out that the Medicaid expansion under ObamaCare would cost New York state, for example, up to $52 billion over ten years. If New York and other states balk at the cost most of those who would've been eligible for Medicaid will now become eligible for subsidies through ObamaCare's health-insurance exchanges. And for several years those subsidies are paid in full by the feds.

Of course, these authorities conclude if states do shift those costs back to the feds, that will cause the federal cost of ObamaCare to skyrocket. If every state were to refuse to expand its Medicaid program, the feds would save roughly $130 billion in their share of Medicaid costs in 2014, but would have to pay $230 billion more in new exchange-based subsidies - for a net added cost of $100 billion. And that's just for the first year.

Article follows.

Only 13 states to date have set up state exchanges, with Tanner estimating that "as few as" 15 states will have done so by the 2014 deadline. The feds are empowered by the law to come in and set up exchanges in the recalcitrant states. But even if they manage to do so, which is an uncertain premise, they may have a small problem on their hands, according to Tanner federal subsidies are available only through exchanges that the states set up. The feds can't offer subsidies through a federally run exchange.

Thus, if states neither expanded Medicaid nor set up exchanges, that would effectively block most of ObamaCare's new entitlement spending. On top of that, the employer mandate penalty, for employers with more than 50 employees who do not provide "adequate" health insurance, kicks in only when at least one employee "qualifies for subsidies under the exchange:"

Since subsidies can only be provided via a state-authorized exchange, a state that refuses to set one up could end up blocking the employer mandate altogether. Whether this whole string of reasoning holds together in reality remains to be seen, but at the very least, unless we are spared by a timely repeal, we can look forward to a long line of lawsuits and legal wrangling that will hopefully take years to resolve.

Source: Blog: Can the states unravel ObamaCare?

If states can legalize pot and have sanctuary states and cities then by that same logic states can say no to Obama-care.
 
You just do not get it do you? They are NOT now on medicaid, so unless they have a life threatening emergency they CAN BE and ARE denied any free ER care. You don't get free ER care unless you can convince them that you NEED IT NOW, after you get on medicaid MONEY comes with that care so all the care that the poor ask for is then given FOR FEDERAL TAX MONEY. I imagine, yet can not prove, that a doctor is happy to give a placebo pill or fake X-ray to get some free federal medicare money for "treating" some poor moron that simply likes seeing doctors.

So, the state gets NOTHING except longer lines at all care facilities that these new medicaid patients choose to visit. Even RomneyCare did not reduce ER use, as all claimed that it would.

But I DO get it! See, in fact they DO have emergencies and serious illnesses that ARE treated at emergency rooms ALL THE TIME! That's why hospitals have tens of billions of dollars of costs THAT THEY HAVE TO EAT! Of course there is also an economic cost to having a large population of workers who don't have access to regular medical care, in terms of lost productivity. And there is also the fact that medical spending ... IS STILL SPENDING that contributes to the state's economy.

So what the state gets is billions and billions of dollars and a healthier population and economy. And it costs the state NOTHING for three years, and after that the feds pay nine out of every ten dollars!
 
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Never underestimate the partisan stupidity of a tea party governor, my friend. My governor (Scott of Florida) has ALREADY turned down several billion dollars to build a high speed rail line that was going to require virtually no money from the state. I fully expect him to follow through on his promise to opt out of Medicaid expansion, despite the fact that he is a former hospital corp. executive and knows full well that it would save hospitals billions and billions of dollars. I reckon that by the time he's voted out of office he will have pissed away more federal funding than any governor in history.

I get the impression that the way you think it should work is that states should clamor, elbow and vacuum up as much federal funding as they possibly can.

What's so wrong about states trying to stop contributing the problem of an increasingly bloated federal government?
 
You just do not get it do you? They are NOT now on medicaid, so unless they have a life threatening emergency they CAN BE and ARE denied any free ER care. You don't get free ER care unless you can convince them that you NEED IT NOW, after you get on medicaid MONEY comes with that care so all the care that the poor ask for is then given FOR FEDERAL TAX MONEY. I imagine, yet can not prove, that a doctor is happy to give a placebo pill or fake X-ray to get some free federal medicare money for "treating" some poor moron that simply likes seeing doctors.

So, the state gets NOTHING except longer lines at all care facilities that these new medicaid patients choose to visit. Even RomneyCare did not reduce ER use, as all claimed that it would.

You are correct, ttwtt.

A report from CNN has recently and correctly revealed just 5% of Americans accounted for half of our nation's health care costs in 2009. This is perhaps the crucial statistic to understand about America's health care problem.

Obamacare will indeed make this problem worse by creating longer lines at all care facilities that these new medicaid patients choose to visit. Jeffey Brenner, used medical billing records to find that just 1% of patients accounted for 30% of health care costs in Camden. And that's not all he discovered in the city's three hospitals. He says: "We learned that someone went 113 times in one year. Someone went 324 times in five years. In similar workup in Trenton, they found someone who went 450 times in one year." These were people with complicated medical histories and chronic illnesses. One patient alone racked up $3.5 million in medical bills over a five year period.

As Brenner says,"They're the difficult patients to treat, and no one is being paid and incentivized to pay attention to them." Obamacare will only make the high cost and the problem worse by a thousand fold!

The world of the U.S. health care issue – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs
 
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You are correct, ttwtt.

A report from CNN has recently and correctly revealed just 5% of Americans accounted for half of our nation's health care costs in 2009. This is perhaps the crucial statistic to understand about America's health care problem.

Is this some kind of revelation to you? That most health care dollars are spent on people who are sick? :lol:

Just imagine how much we could cut out of health care spending if we just stopped treating those sick people!!
 
Is this some kind of revelation to you? That most health care dollars are spent on people who are sick? :lol:

Just imagine how much we could cut out of health care spending if we just stopped treating those sick people!!

I think we could cut out some health care spending by discontinuing surgeries performed in people's last year of life. Addictive prescription drugs lead to a lot of overutilization too, I reckon.
 
You are correct, ttwtt.

A report from CNN has recently and correctly revealed just 5% of Americans accounted for half of our nation's health care costs in 2009. This is perhaps the crucial statistic to understand about America's health care problem. [...]
More fun facts:

Studies have shown that the 5% of Medicare patients who die each year account for 30% of Medicare's costs, with 78% of last-year-of-life expenses occurring in the month before death.

End-of-life care provision stirs angst in health reform debate - amednews.com
 
I think we could cut out some health care spending by discontinuing surgeries performed in people's last year of life. Addictive prescription drugs lead to a lot of overutilization too, I reckon.

This is what your Republicans would call death panels, but I agree.

Here are some really astonishing figures:

The federal government estimates that 70 percent of health-care expenditures are spent on the elderly, 80 percent of that in the last month of life -- and often for aggressive, life-sustaining care that is futile.


Mercury News editorial: Health care spending on end-of-life treatment is irrational - San Jose Mercury News

In other words, over half of all health care spending is spent to treat people who aren't going to live more than a month anyway.
 
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States can opt out of the Medicare expansion, though they would be idiotic to do so (because it costs them nothing for three years and only 10% after that). But they cannot avoid exchanges. If they fail to set up their own then state residents will be able to take advantage of a federal exchange.

I had head it was 10% in the 4th year and becomes progressively higher the longer it goes. Do you have the ramp up schedule, or have I heard wrong?
 
This is what your Republicans would call death panels, but I agree.

Here are some really astonishing figures:

The federal government estimates that 70 percent of health-care expenditures are spent on the elderly, 80 percent of that in the last month of life -- and often for aggressive, life-sustaining care that is futile.

In other words, over half of all health care spending is spent to treat people who aren't going to live more than a month anyway.

So then WTF is up with you mocking James Cessna in your post (#33)?
 
So then WTF is up with you mocking James Cessna in your post (#33)?

He was making a different point. Overlapping, but different. And I have no idea why he keeps bringing up the statistic.
 
Never underestimate the partisan stupidity of a tea party governor, my friend. My governor (Scott of Florida) has ALREADY turned down several billion dollars to build a high speed rail line that was going to require virtually no money from the state. I fully expect him to follow through on his promise to opt out of Medicaid expansion, despite the fact that he is a former hospital corp. executive and knows full well that it would save hospitals billions and billions of dollars. I reckon that by the time he's voted out of office he will have pissed away more federal funding than any governor in history.

Possibly so, but it still won't last for long. Even if Rick Scott holds out for a few years, the next governor almost certainly won't. And even if politics would push him in the direction of opting out, the money will be pushing him the opposite way. The health care providers love the Medicaid expansion, and I think they'll be strongly lobbying any governor even contemplating resistance.
 
Do you realize that they may reject the program, because of very expensive future costs.
The same rational was applied to a worthless HSR line.

From 2020 onward, the feds are still picking up 90% of the costs of the Medicaid expansion. "Very expensive future costs" for the states does not seem to be an issue at any point in the foreseeable future. I think libertarians/conservatives should be more worried about the opposite outcome: the federalization of Medicaid. ;)
 
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I get the impression that the way you think it should work is that states should clamor, elbow and vacuum up as much federal funding as they possibly can.

What's so wrong about states trying to stop contributing the problem of an increasingly bloated federal government?

It's still a Prisoner's Dilemma for the states. Even if some governors honestly believe that the nation as a whole would be better off without the Medicaid expansion (or any other source of federal funding to the states), no state wants to be the sucker that turns down money while other states participate. Each individual state would be better off with that money, regardless of their ideology.
 
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It's still a Prisoner's Dilemma for the states. Even if some governors honestly believe that the nation as a whole would be better off without the Medicaid expansion (or any other source of federal funding to the states), no state wants to be the sucker that turns down money while other states participate. Each individual state would be better off with that money, regardless of their ideology.


Only if you believe that the Federal government reigns supreme over the states...Because that is the track record of this lying administration...They dole out money we don't have, then tell you what to do.
 
It's still a Prisoner's Dilemma for the states. Even if some governors honestly believe that the nation as a whole would be better off without the Medicaid expansion (or any other source of federal funding to the states), no state wants to be the sucker that turns down money while other states participate. Each individual state would be better off with that money, regardless of their ideology.

States turn down federal programs all the time, especially when they are unfunded mandates or going to cost them in the long run. Some governors are smart enough to avoid the loss-leader (retail sales term for an item sold at a loss to entice the buyer in).

Governors know that by participating they hook their people on increased federal taxation forever (to pay for the money they're paying the state for these exchanges). Where, if they resist, there's a chance the tax and the program will be overturned. Once the people are on the system, it's virtually impossible to kill. Even the worse federal programs, if allowed to live beyond their controversy, are unkillable. They zombie on forever. Governors know this, some of their people do too.

As for the expenses of health care in the last month of life - well DUH! That's like saying you finally found your keys in the last place you looked (well, let's just hope you didn't keep looking after you found them :mrgreen:).
 
i've heard all of the talking points against the PPACA. the only good thing i can say about it is that it eliminates some slimy insurance practices. those should have been passed in a different bill, though.

to fix our health care problems, we need basic coverage for all Americans, and the coverage should in no way be tied to specific employment. also, we have to vastly increase the number of primary care physicians, which is artificially low. we have to expand our medical schools and make them more affordable. and we have to reduce the cost of bringing a drug to market, which means patients are going to have to accept a higher degree of risk.

put simply, our system is failing, and it's taking down other sectors with it. a mandate to buy private insurance is barely a band aid. the starting point of negotiations should have been medicare for all, and the compromise should have been a public option for everyone who fell through the cracks. but, unfortunately, the opposition wanted either nothing or a bill that was so fatally flawed that it couldn't possibly work, so we got the mandate.

at least it's a step. eventually, people will tire of going bankrupt over their kid's broken arm when that's not the status quo in any other first world country. at that point, maybe we'll really try to solve the problem.

I agree with the bolded but I dont think government taking it over is the solution. I think government can kick employers out of the healthcare business by just removing the huge tax break companies get on insurance premiums and transfer it to individuals only. Give insurance watchdogs in each state teeth so they can penalize them when they try to abuse honest customers and toughen up the penalties for insurance fraud. There are a lot of simple baby step solutions that will get us moving in the right direction. Right now there is no way costs are going to go down with the amount of increased government cost baked into this bill.
 
It's still a Prisoner's Dilemma for the states. Even if some governors honestly believe that the nation as a whole would be better off without the Medicaid expansion (or any other source of federal funding to the states), no state wants to be the sucker that turns down money while other states participate. Each individual state would be better off with that money, regardless of their ideology.

WRONG. What is free, at first, is not GUARANTEED to remain so, even 10% (due from third year on) is HUGE for the states, as they must either cut other state services or raise taxes to fund it FOREVER. Unlike Obama, that can simply borrow and promise, states have REAL budgets that they actually have to balance. If they were so SURE to take it, then why did the law threaten to yank ALL medicad funding if they did not? The same may happen with the "state" exchanges, if they are not run by the states then the federal gov't must run them, at no cost to the state EVER.
 
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I agree with the bolded but I dont think government taking it over is the solution. I think government can kick employers out of the healthcare business by just removing the huge tax break companies get on insurance premiums and transfer it to individuals only. Give insurance watchdogs in each state teeth so they can penalize them when they try to abuse honest customers and toughen up the penalties for insurance fraud. There are a lot of simple baby step solutions that will get us moving in the right direction. Right now there is no way costs are going to go down with the amount of increased government cost baked into this bill.

It is easier to just drive the "private" medical care insurance companies out of business (or their premium cost WAY up), forcing employers to "choose" to pay the fine instead, giving their employees a lot more pay instead of insurance and then the federal gov't gets all that extra tax revenue from FICA and FIT on that "raise". ;-)
 
From 2020 onward, the feds are still picking up 90% of the costs of the Medicaid expansion. "Very expensive future costs" for the states does not seem to be an issue at any point in the foreseeable future. I think libertarians/conservatives should be more worried about the opposite outcome: the federalization of Medicaid. ;)

I hope you understand how crappy of a program Medicaid is.
Providers have been limiting medicaid recipients for years because of under market payments.
Several years ago, I was helping a woman find an OB that took Medicaid in Atlanta.
The results were disheartening for her.

I'm more concerned that the feds will increase spending, to get providers to actually accept the program, which in turn will cause greater medical cost inflation.
 
WRONG. What is free, at first, is not GUARANTEED to remain so, even 10% (due from third year on) is HUGE for the states, as they must either cut other state services or raise taxes to fund it FOREVER.

Please -- there are no guarantees in life. If the feds change the rules of the game in five years then the states can opt out in five years. In the meantime, if a state opts out, it will forego tens of billions of dollars in benefits for its citizens but the states' citizens will still have to contribute to the benefits that OTHER states will receive.
 
I hope you understand how crappy of a program Medicaid is.
Providers have been limiting medicaid recipients for years because of under market payments.
Several years ago, I was helping a woman find an OB that took Medicaid in Atlanta.
The results were disheartening for her.

I'm more concerned that the feds will increase spending, to get providers to actually accept the program, which in turn will cause greater medical cost inflation.

I'm pretty sure that Medicaid is better than nothing, which is the alternative.
 
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