• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

Albert Di Salvo

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
5,544
Reaction score
685
Location
Undisclosed
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
I think President Obama is being very foolish in escalating his conflict with Iran. The Iranians have offered to resume negotiations. The President is going to get Americans killed. Check this out:


US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

"The US navy announced the arrival of the USS Abraham Lincoln in the north Arabian Sea and the USS Enterprise, the world's longest naval vessel, in the Gulf of Aden.A senior official in President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's government threatened in January unspecified action if American aircraft carriers returned to the Persian Gulf, saying: "We are not in the habit of warning more than once".

Although neither ship has entered the Gulf itself, the deployment will be seen as an unmistakable challenge in Tehran ahead of the beginning of negotiations on Saturday, which President Barack Obama has described as Iran's "last chance" to resolve the nuclear impasse through diplomacy.

In recent weeks Iran has been forced to temper its bellicose rhetoric after American and European Union sanctions against the country's central bank and energy sector began to have serious consequences for its already faltering economy..."


Read More:
US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf - Telegraph


 
Since when is that a problem for conservatives?

For me personally it became a problem after the failure to discover WMD in Iraq. That changed my perspective on the use of force in American foreign policy.

This was reinforced when it became clear that domestic political forces were prepared to use foreign military intervention for achieving domestic political advantage. That means that American forces will always be sand bagged by one side or the other. Imo that is so profoundly immoral that the best policy is for America never to fight unless the American homeland is actually attacked, and America has a clear cut objective in responding. Even then I am only prepared to see America fight using the Mongol way of war. Since that won't be acceptable to most Americans the only course of action that is reasonable is never to fight except on American soil.
 
Since that day in January 2009 when a Democrat assumed the office of the President.

January 20, 2009 was the date the leftist anti-war movement went silent. That's why President Obama has a free hand to wage unrestricted drone war against civilians in Pakistan, Somalia and Kenya. He's even building new drone bases in the Indian Ocean so he can reach out and touch sleeping villagers any where in the vicinity of the Indian Ocean. Obama doesn't take prisoners. He kills them dead along with their families and anyone else who happens by. He even launches drone strikes against people who he doesn't identify. If they make the wrong move he kills them dead.

Now President Obama has built up US forces around Iran in order to intimidate that country. He's goig to get America into another war. That's a very foolish thing to do.
 
January 20, 2009 was the date the leftist anti-war movement went silent. That's why President Obama has a free hand to wage unrestricted drone war against civilians in Pakistan, Somalia and Kenya. He's even building new drone bases in the Indian Ocean so he can reach out and touch sleeping villagers any where in the vicinity of the Indian Ocean. Obama doesn't take prisoners. He kills them dead along with their families and anyone else who happens by. He even launches drone strikes against people who he doesn't identify. If they make the wrong move he kills them dead.

Now President Obama has built up US forces around Iran in order to intimidate that country. He's goig to get America into another war. That's a very foolish thing to do.


yet if he had done none of the actions you enumerate, the President would be denigrated as a weakling - caving into the terrorists. Just admit it - you and those you support will refuse to endorse absolutely any actions taken by the "Kenyan-born, Mooslem socialist" who was elected President.



By the way, me calling out the hypocrisy of the right does not, should not - be taken as me endorsing every action the President has undertaken since his inauguration but the right doesn't do nuance very well so they may not understand such a position.
 
yet if he had done none of the actions you enumerate, the President would be denigrated as a weakling - caving into the terrorists. Just admit it - you and those you support will refuse to endorse absolutely any actions taken by the "Kenyan-born, Mooslem socialist" who was elected President.

The personal fate of an individual president is of little importance in the great sweep of history. It is of even less importance to the fate of the country. And it is of no importance to the Americans who die as a result of misguided action.

Btw, Obama was born in Hawaii. He's not a Muslim. He's a social justice guy.

His problem as far as I am concerned is that he is a post-modern liberal. I am a classical liberal. No post-modern liberal is ok as president. The two sides can't compromise because one side believes in the ideal of individual liberty and the other side believes in equality of outcome. There can be no political peace unless the country is restructured to eliminate the power of one side to impose its will on the other side. The alternative is termination of the established order by allowing external forces of history to collapse the system.

By the way, me calling out the hypocrisy of the right does not, should not - be taken as me endorsing every action the President has undertaken since his inauguration but the right doesn't do nuance very well so they may not understand such a position.

I'm not a Republican. I call myself a conservative because there is no where else to go. If truth be told my views are a fusion of classical liberalism and confucianism.
 
I never understand why the kind of crap is such an accepted part of international diplomacy. If you want to make empty threats and posture like an insecure peacock, don't get real weapons involved. It only takes one idiot mistake to cause an incident, as we saw with the loss of a Turkish aircraft near Syria. The political situation than spirals out of control, and you get a war on your hands that neither side actually wants. Politicians shouldn't be gambling real lives for silly political games.
 
The US has maintained two carriers in the region for years now. There's nothing new or unusual about this movement.
 
I think President Obama is being very foolish in escalating his conflict with Iran. The Iranians have offered to resume negotiations. The President is going to get Americans killed. Check this out:


US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf


There is nothing foolish about sending those military reinforcements into the Persian Gulf. They are there "to deter the Iranian military from any possible attempt to shut the Strait of Hormuz" and "to increase the number of fighter jets capable of striking deep into Iran if the standoff over its nuclear program escalates."
 
I think President Obama is being very foolish in escalating his conflict with Iran. The Iranians have offered to resume negotiations. The President is going to get Americans killed. Check this out:


US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

"The US navy announced the arrival of the USS Abraham Lincoln in the north Arabian Sea and the USS Enterprise, the world's longest naval vessel, in the Gulf of Aden.A senior official in President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's government threatened in January unspecified action if American aircraft carriers returned to the Persian Gulf, saying: "We are not in the habit of warning more than once".

Although neither ship has entered the Gulf itself, the deployment will be seen as an unmistakable challenge in Tehran ahead of the beginning of negotiations on Saturday, which President Barack Obama has described as Iran's "last chance" to resolve the nuclear impasse through diplomacy.

In recent weeks Iran has been forced to temper its bellicose rhetoric after American and European Union sanctions against the country's central bank and energy sector began to have serious consequences for its already faltering economy..."


Read More:
US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf - Telegraph




For me personally it became a problem after the failure to discover WMD in Iraq. That changed my perspective on the use of force in American foreign policy.

This was reinforced when it became clear that domestic political forces were prepared to use foreign military intervention for achieving domestic political advantage. That means that American forces will always be sand bagged by one side or the other. Imo that is so profoundly immoral that the best policy is for America never to fight unless the American homeland is actually attacked, and America has a clear cut objective in responding. Even then I am only prepared to see America fight using the Mongol way of war. Since that won't be acceptable to most Americans the only course of action that is reasonable is never to fight except on American soil.

January 20, 2009 was the date the leftist anti-war movement went silent. That's why President Obama has a free hand to wage unrestricted drone war against civilians in Pakistan, Somalia and Kenya. He's even building new drone bases in the Indian Ocean so he can reach out and touch sleeping villagers any where in the vicinity of the Indian Ocean. Obama doesn't take prisoners. He kills them dead along with their families and anyone else who happens by. He even launches drone strikes against people who he doesn't identify. If they make the wrong move he kills them dead.

Now President Obama has built up US forces around Iran in order to intimidate that country. He's goig to get America into another war. That's a very foolish thing to do.

My answer to the above would be read the book, "Great Power: American and the World After [G. W.] Bush" and then maybe this show of American sea power projection will start to make some sense. Granted, Iran has acted more like a pesky mosquito or a knat, but this move along with moving U.S. warship into the south-Pacific near China's doorstep follow the tennant, "walk softly but carry a big stick".

I don't expect Iran or China to do anything militarily; neither have enough firepower to be much of a threat. But like Reagan, Obama can, will and has used our military to intimidate, bully and if necessary kill those who threaten our national security.
 
I think President Obama is being very foolish in escalating his conflict with Iran. The Iranians have offered to resume negotiations. The President is going to get Americans killed.

This is a prudent decision on the part pf the US. Iran is seeking legislation which would give enable the Iranian military to block any oil tanker from countries that takes part in the oil embargo and they have tested missiles which would reach US targets in the area. To ignore Iran's actions is irresponsible and reckless.

"Iran announced it would consider legislation to disrupt marine traffic in the Strait of Hormuz. The legislation calls for the Iranian military to block any oil tanker on its way to countries that no longer buy Iranian crude because of the embargo.

On Tuesday, Iran test-fired several ballistic missiles capable of striking American bases in the region as well as Israel. Iran claimed the surface-to-surface missiles hit their targets after travelling 800 miles, The Associated Press reported."

US Sends Ships, Fighter Jets to Brace for Iran Threat
 
What do you folks think will happen if anything goes wrong for Obama in the Persian Gulf? Division and recriminations. America is not a normal great power. It has a dysfunctional political culture where any foreign conflict will be used for domestic political advantage. That means America can't fight any one effectively. It didn't use to be this way, but we allowed it to happen.
 
This is a prudent decision on the part pf the US. Iran is seeking legislation which would give enable the Iranian military to block any oil tanker from countries that takes part in the oil embargo and they have tested missiles which would reach US targets in the area. To ignore Iran's actions is irresponsible and reckless.

"Iran announced it would consider legislation to disrupt marine traffic in the Strait of Hormuz. The legislation calls for the Iranian military to block any oil tanker on its way to countries that no longer buy Iranian crude because of the embargo.

On Tuesday, Iran test-fired several ballistic missiles capable of striking American bases in the region as well as Israel. Iran claimed the surface-to-surface missiles hit their targets after travelling 800 miles, The Associated Press reported."

US Sends Ships, Fighter Jets to Brace for Iran Threat

I think this is another empty Iranian threat. After the John C. Stennis rescued Iranian sailors and later departed, Iran thanked them by warning the carrier to never return. A few weeks later another carrier arrived and cruised through the Strait with no Iranian naval response. So much for the big-talking Iran. So much for their threat. Iran may pass this blockade through their legislature, but they would be ill-advised to put it into action.
 
There is nothing foolish about sending those military reinforcements into the Persian Gulf. They are there "to deter the Iranian military from any possible attempt to shut the Strait of Hormuz" and "to increase the number of fighter jets capable of striking deep into Iran if the standoff over its nuclear program escalates."

As long as American forces remain in the Middle East this country will fight an endless series of wars. Better to come home.
 
As long as American forces remain in the Middle East this country will fight an endless series of wars. Better to come home.


In the current situation there is no doubt that any sign of weakness will be used to Iran's advantage. For example, Iran has threatened to close the Straits of Hormuz for the ships of any nation who takes part in sanctions, were America not showing strength and warning Iran against any stupid acts, then there is a good possibility the the Iranian Regime would attempt to close the Straits with consequent economic disruption for the West and the certainty of more serious action.
 
I think this is another empty Iranian threat. After the John C. Stennis rescued Iranian sailors and later departed, Iran thanked them by warning the carrier to never return. A few weeks later another carrier arrived and cruised through the Strait with no Iranian naval response. So much for the big-talking Iran. So much for their threat. Iran may pass this blockade through their legislature, but they would be ill-advised to put it into action.

While ill advised, it would be foolhardy to ignore.
 
While ill advised, it would be foolhardy to ignore.

Agreed. A response is necessary. And they might be just as fanatically stupid as I worry about. So we need to maintain our guard.
 
The Arabian Sea is not the Persian Gulf.

arabsea.gif
 
In the current situation there is no doubt that any sign of weakness will be used to Iran's advantage. For example, Iran has threatened to close the Straits of Hormuz for the ships of any nation who takes part in sanctions, were America not showing strength and warning Iran against any stupid acts, then there is a good possibility the the Iranian Regime would attempt to close the Straits with consequent economic disruption for the West and the certainty of more serious action.

Let the countries that depend on Persian Gulf oil defend the production of crude oil and the transit of tankers themselves. Why send US forces in such large numbers to the region when President Obama has granted each of Iran's twenty top trade partners blanket exemptions from sanctions? Doesn't make sense.
 
Thanks for the insight.

The US won't want any big ships caught up in the Persian Gulf if war breaks out.. This probably what they call 'exercises' or whatever they call that.
 
The US won't want any big ships caught up in the Persian Gulf if war breaks out.. This probably what they call 'exercises' or whatever they call that.

It would probably be a good idea to get the entire Fifth Fleet out of its base in Bahrain. No blood for oil.
 
Let the countries that depend on Persian Gulf oil defend the production of crude oil and the transit of tankers themselves. Why send US forces in such large numbers to the region when President Obama has granted each of Iran's twenty top trade partners blanket exemptions from sanctions? Doesn't make sense.


It's true the US doesn't insist on the directly involved and friendly countries to play their part.

Having said that, it's absolutely necessary and prudent, to maintain an American military presence in the area to combat Iran's intentions, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States who are enemies of Iran should also be playing a prominent role as should the European nations.
 
Since when is that a problem for conservatives?

You could do the liberal thing, and go over as a human shield.

Sent from my blasted phone.
 
Back
Top Bottom