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Thread: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    I've made what what I'm saying clear as crystal: The UN is a parasite, and we need to separate ourselves from them before we collapse entirely.


    More like the worlds biggest sucker. We have a 15 trillion dollar deficit and we're spending millions to put our carriers in position to protect interests that we will not have exclusive rights to. It's a scam.
    Explain how it is a parasite? And sure the US deficit is a problem, let's start attacking the problem of entitlements, not unilaterally withdraw from the most prominent global organization on the planet because of a few bills (which we usually don't pay btw).

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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Explain how it is a parasite? And sure the US deficit is a problem, let's start attacking the problem of entitlements, not unilaterally withdraw from the most prominent global organization on the planet because of a few bills (which we usually don't pay btw).
    for such a parasite, it has little power or authority
    notice how it was unable the USA from the folly that became the war in iraq
    not that it didn't try
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Explain how it is a parasite? And sure the US deficit is a problem, let's start attacking the problem of entitlements, not unilaterally withdraw from the most prominent global organization on the planet because of a few bills (which we usually don't pay btw).
    Because every treaty we sign with them is constitutionally binding. General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade regulates how we can trade, NATO was used by us to lock other nations into Operation Eagle Assist, several defense based treaties force us to defend others, and likewise, whether it is beneficial for any party concerned, or not. Open Skies treaty is an interesting one, since it forces us to allow other signers of the treaty to monitor our military forces and activity via aerial recon. There's more, but I'm tired and have to start winding down for the night.

    The bills are the problem. Our obligations to the UN through these treaties are costing us more money than we can generate.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba
    for such a parasite, it has little power or authority
    Treaties have a lot of authority. Article VI of the US Constitution states:

    "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Because every treaty we sign with them is constitutionally binding. General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade regulates how we can trade, NATO was used by us to lock other nations into Operation Eagle Assist, several defense based treaties force us to defend others, and likewise, whether it is beneficial for any party concerned, or not. Open Skies treaty is an interesting one, since it forces us to allow other signers of the treaty to monitor our military forces and activity via aerial recon. There's more, but I'm tired and have to start winding down for the night.

    The bills are the problem. Our obligations to the UN through these treaties are costing us more money than we can generate.


    Treaties have a lot of authority. Article VI of the US Constitution states:

    "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

    Every treaty the US signs no matter what is constitutionally binding. Secondly do you think that GATT or NATO had anything to do with the UN? They do not. The US has always been free to sign onto treaties or not to and it did this hundreds of times before the creation of the UN. It has to do with how we perceive these treaties in terms of utility and perspective, not the UN. You aren't talking about withdrawing from the UN, you are talking about withdrawing from the world.

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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Every treaty the US signs no matter what is constitutionally binding.
    I know, I already said that and posted text from the Constitution supporting my claim.

    Secondly do you think that GATT or NATO had anything to do with the UN? They do not.
    GATT was negotiated in a UN conference. NATO and the UN have been cooperating together since inception of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and officially joined together in 2008.

    The US has always been free to sign onto treaties or not to and it did this hundreds of times before the creation of the UN.
    The problem with that is, when a president makes a bad policy move, it can be reversed. We can't reverse a treaty.

    It has to do with how we perceive these treaties in terms of utility and perspective, not the UN.
    No, it has to do with our involvement with the UN being detrimental to the US.

    You aren't talking about withdrawing from the UN, you are talking about withdrawing from the world.
    No, that's just what your opinion of me. Nowhere have I stated such a thing.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    I know, I already said that and posted text from the Constitution supporting my claim.


    GATT was negotiated in a UN conference. NATO and the UN have been cooperating together since inception of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and officially joined together in 2008.


    The problem with that is, when a president makes a bad policy move, it can be reversed. We can't reverse a treaty.


    No, it has to do with our involvement with the UN being detrimental to the US.


    No, that's just what your opinion of me. Nowhere have I stated such a thing.
    What does it matter that it was negotiated at first at the UN? Nor was the ITO a UN body. What does it matter? The US supported a global trade regimen that would reduce tariffs and export regulatory burdens if you oppose that fine, but that has little to do with the UN as a body. Secondly NATO and the UN are not the same thing and I'm not sure what you are referring to, the summit head meetings? Thirdly, so what is your point? That the US should not have had the treaty clause in the Constitution? Also the US can reverse a treaty, you can withdraw from it or abrogate it a decent example is the ABM treaty. Fourthly how is it detrimental? It is useful interlocutor for international negotiations, it is good mechanism for restraining many of our foes, it allows a greater expression of US norms, etc etc. Fifthly well it sure seems like it given how focused you have been the various treaties and security commitments the US has and how quickly we must withdraw from them.

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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What does it matter that it was negotiated at first at the UN?
    Because it's a UN treaty. GATT was passed in 1947. ITO came into existence the following year.

    What does it matter?
    The point is, all of these treaties add up, and it's costing us more than it's worth. This answers your question of how the UN is a parasite.

    Fourthly how is it detrimental?
    Lack of representation. The American People have no say, despite its effect on us.

    well it sure seems like it given how focused you have been the various treaties and security commitments the US has and how quickly we must withdraw from them.
    Still your opinion. We can do all kinds of **** without being bound to treaties. The UN is not necessary for America to thrive, nor is it necessary for us to have relations with other countries.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Because it's a UN treaty. GATT was passed in 1947. ITO came into existence the following year.


    The point is, all of these treaties add up, and it's costing us more than it's worth. This answers your question of how the UN is a parasite.


    Lack of representation. The American People have no say, despite its effect on us.


    Still your opinion. We can do all kinds of **** without being bound to treaties. The UN is not necessary for America to thrive, nor is it necessary for us to have relations with other countries.
    But it is irrelevant that it was negotiated at the UN! The UN is not the arbiter of the treaty! The UN is not an actor! The UN is a collection of recognized countries, the US chose to engage in that policy objective and the UN provided an excellent vehicle to do so. How is that so awful? How does it cost more than its worth? What operating costs are you talking about? Also of course you have a say, you have a say via the representatives and executive who craft policy and pick envoys. Also participation in the UN is quite important to US legitimacy and global standing, which is really rather important.

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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    But it is irrelevant that it was negotiated at the UN! The UN is not the arbiter of the treaty!
    You can't be serious. The conference was held in Havana Cuba in 1947 by the UN. It is a UN treaty. Research it. In fact, you need to do a lot of research on what the UN actually is, and what it does.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: US flexes muscles as it sends aircraft carriers to Persian Gulf

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    You can't be serious. The conference was held in Havana Cuba in 1947 by the UN. It is a UN treaty. Research it. In fact, you need to do a lot of research on what the UN actually is, and what it does.
    For the love of god, the UN isn't an actor, it is a mechanism. The UN doesn't bind the treaty together, the US and the member parties do.

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