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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

A "tax" that you can choose not to pay. You know, like sales taxes.

Horse dung. You can comply with the law, pay the tax, or be jailed. How can you chose NOT to pay it, in one form or another?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

A "tax" that you can choose not to pay. You know, like sales taxes.


You see that sounds great, but there is no way this bill can become a reality without TAXING the middle class. The govt is trying to sell this mess with all these "you won't have to change" but I don't buy that. After all they LIED - IT'S A TAX.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Horse dung. You can comply with the law, pay the tax, or be jailed. How can you chose NOT to pay it, in one form or another?

If you have health insurance, you don't pay the tax/penalty. Simple. It's a choice. :)

You see that sounds great, but there is no way this bill can become a reality without TAXING the middle class. The govt is trying to sell this mess with all these "you won't have to change" but I don't buy that. After all they LIED - IT'S A TAX.

But Romney said it's a mandate. Wait, no, it's a tax. Wait, no...
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Check out the results to the second question.

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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Because even now, after the fact he has surrogates arguing that it is not, in fact, a tax. It is upheld only on the idea that the mandate is construed to be a tax---if it is not a tax, the bill is not legal as the commerce clause has limits to what it can do, but it is now argued that the tax power does not. Im not sure which is the worse idea, to be honest; government should have limits in all of its powers.


why should political hyperbole be relevant to the discussion on constitutionality?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

why should political hyperbole be relevant to the discussion on constitutionality?

OK let's discuss constitutionality then. The SCOTUS does not make law, they simply evaluate law as to whether it conforms to the constitution, or not. It is NOT "judicial activism" to declare a law, or lower court ruling based on a law, as unconstitional. Justice Roberts wrote a "majority" opinion that NO other justice, even those voting for making the PPACA law stand (based on the commerce clause), would sign on to.

JUstice Roberts claimed that since IRS was involved, IN A MINOR WAY with the individual mandate, that it was not unconstitutional. A very bad legal decision, IMHO, as it ignores the REAL issue, which is the federal gov't requiring a citizen to purchase a PRIVATE good or service, that has NO basis on any federal power granted by the constitution AT ALL.

The federal power to tax INCOME (IRS) comes only from the 16th amendment, that simply allows INCOME from all sources to be taxed. IMHO, Roberts has, in fact, become an "activist" judge in allowing HOW INCOME WAS SPENT, rather that simply the income itself, to be subjected to taxation. Two citizens both making EXACTLY $50K in income (from any source) should not be taxed any more, or less, than the other, based on the 14th amendment requiring EQUAL protection under the law.

The nonsense of our 80,000+ pages of FIT law with the majority of that law addressing how income was spent with credits, deductions and exclusions based NOT on the source of the income, but how that income was LATER spent, is unconstitutional. The SCOTUS is far to lenient in giving even a slight INDIRECT relationship to a federally authorized power, to serve as a reason to say that a law is constitutional. Simply using the IRS as a collection agency does NOT make the PPACA fine/penalty LEGAL, as NOTHING in the constitution gives the federal gov't power to order a citizen to buy a private product or service, to reward them for doing so or to punish them for not doing so.
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

If you have health insurance, you don't pay the tax/penalty. Simple. It's a choice. :)



But Romney said it's a mandate. Wait, no, it's a tax. Wait, no...


Wordsmith all you want. And boy, oh, boy, is the WH and its minions trying to wordsmith this LIE. IT'S A TAX. We are all going to pay this TAX. It can not happen any other way except to TAX THE MIDDLE CLASS. This "1%" crap ain't gonna buy it and anyone with a grain of intelligence can see it.

There is no way "THE 1%" can possibly pay for all the 'EXTRAS' needed to make this Obamacare bill crap a reality.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

OK let's discuss constitutionality then. The SCOTUS does not make law, they simply evaluate law as to whether it conforms to the constitution, or not. It is NOT "judicial activism" to declare a law, or lower court ruling based on a law, as unconstitional. Justice Roberts wrote a "majority" opinion that NO other justice, even those voting for making the PPACA law stand (based on the commerce clause), would sign on to.

JUstice Roberts claimed that since IRS was involved, IN A MINOR WAY with the individual mandate, that it was not unconstitutional. A very bad legal decision, IMHO, as it ignores the REAL issue, which is the federal gov't requiring a citizen to purchase a PRIVATE good or service, that has NO basis on any federal power granted by the constitution AT ALL.

The federal power to tax INCOME (IRS) comes only from the 16th amendment, that simply allows INCOME from all sources to be taxed. IMHO, Roberts has, in fact, become an "activist" judge in allowing HOW INCOME WAS SPENT, rather that simply the income itself, to be subjected to taxation. Two citizens both making EXACTLY $50K in income (from any source) should not be taxed any more, or less, than the other, based on the 14th amendment requiring EQUAL protection under the law.

The nonsense of our 80,000+ pages of FIT law with the majority of that law addressing how income was spent with credits, deductions and exclusions based NOT on the source of the income, but how that income was LATER spent, is unconstitutional. The SCOTUS is far to lenient in giving even a slight INDIRECT relationship to a federally authorized power, to serve as a reason to say that a law is constitutional. Simply using the IRS as a collection agency does NOT make the PPACA fine/penalty LEGAL, as NOTHING in the constitution gives the federal gov't power to order a citizen to buy a private product or service, to reward them for doing so or to punish them for not doing so.

Don't conservatives believe in people paying for what they get? Didn't the fact that all of us have heath care coverage in the emergency room influence Roberts in his beleif that people should pay something for that "coverage". That and the fact that the mandate was a conservative idea had Robert's stuck on finding a way to make it Constitutional. You guys made your own bed and now are squawking about lieing in it. Roberts simply couldn't be as hypocritical as the rest of you. I don't blame him, it's a mystery to me how Romney can even look at himself in a mirror.
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Don't conservatives believe in people paying for what they get? Didn't the fact that all of us have heath care coverage in the emergency room influence Roberts in his beleif that people should pay something for that "coverage". That and the fact that the mandate was a conservative idea had Robert's stuck on finding a way to make it Constitutional. You guys made your own bed and now are squawking about lieing in it. Roberts simply couldn't be as hypocritical as the rest of you. I don't blame him, it's a mystery to me how Romney can even look at himself in a mirror.

why would Robert's feel indebted to a policy, simply because it came from a conservative think tank?

PS some of you people are way too hung up on this whole left vs right thing
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

OK let's discuss constitutionality then. The SCOTUS does not make law, they simply evaluate law as to whether it conforms to the constitution, or not. It is NOT "judicial activism" to declare a law, or lower court ruling based on a law, as unconstitional. Justice Roberts wrote a "majority" opinion that NO other justice, even those voting for making the PPACA law stand (based on the commerce clause), would sign on to.

JUstice Roberts claimed that since IRS was involved, IN A MINOR WAY with the individual mandate, that it was not unconstitutional. A very bad legal decision, IMHO, as it ignores the REAL issue, which is the federal gov't requiring a citizen to purchase a PRIVATE good or service, that has NO basis on any federal power granted by the constitution AT ALL.

The federal power to tax INCOME (IRS) comes only from the 16th amendment, that simply allows INCOME from all sources to be taxed. IMHO, Roberts has, in fact, become an "activist" judge in allowing HOW INCOME WAS SPENT, rather that simply the income itself, to be subjected to taxation. Two citizens both making EXACTLY $50K in income (from any source) should not be taxed any more, or less, than the other, based on the 14th amendment requiring EQUAL protection under the law.

The nonsense of our 80,000+ pages of FIT law with the majority of that law addressing how income was spent with credits, deductions and exclusions based NOT on the source of the income, but how that income was LATER spent, is unconstitutional. The SCOTUS is far to lenient in giving even a slight INDIRECT relationship to a federally authorized power, to serve as a reason to say that a law is constitutional. Simply using the IRS as a collection agency does NOT make the PPACA fine/penalty LEGAL, as NOTHING in the constitution gives the federal gov't power to order a citizen to buy a private product or service, to reward them for doing so or to punish them for not doing so.

As stated earlier I really don't have strong thoughts on the constitutional question, largely because it's a subject I'm not well versed on. But I'm glad we agree that political hyperbole isn't really relevant to it
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

And%20then%20we%20told%20them.jpg
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Don't conservatives believe in people paying for what they get? Didn't the fact that all of us have heath care coverage in the emergency room influence Roberts in his beleif that people should pay something for that "coverage". That and the fact that the mandate was a conservative idea had Robert's stuck on finding a way to make it Constitutional. You guys made your own bed and now are squawking about lieing in it. Roberts simply couldn't be as hypocritical as the rest of you. I don't blame him, it's a mystery to me how Romney can even look at himself in a mirror.

LOL MA has RomneyCare and still have plenty of free ER using folks. Take a look at the REAL effects of RomneyCare before you get all giddy about the wonders of the PPACA law. Link: Massachusetts health care reform - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Yet Romney is your man.



Romney inacted HC in MA. Evidently MA wanted HC or the majority wanted HC. They haven't gotten rid of the HC program. thus they must like their HC. I guess the liked paying higher TAXES in order to obtain this. I guess the state is have difficulties pay for the program, but they'll just hike TAXES again, and again.

It differs from Obamacare. Most of the people don't want this monstrosity. And if this 'thing' stays, the burden of debt will fall on the MIDDLE CLASS. They always get the load to carry. The pipedream and advertisement, a.k.a., that it's not going to be that way is all a lie.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Romney inacted HC in MA. Evidently MA wanted HC or the majority wanted HC. They haven't gotten rid of the HC program. thus they must like their HC. I guess the liked paying higher TAXES in order to obtain this. I guess the state is have difficulties pay for the program, but they'll just hike TAXES again, and again.

It differs from Obamacare. Most of the people don't want this monstrosity. And if this 'thing' stays, the burden of debt will fall on the MIDDLE CLASS. They always get the load to carry. The pipedream and advertisement, a.k.a., that it's not going to be that way is all a lie.

Not quite true. It is more a third thinks it goes too far, and fit your definition. Another third want it to go further, and while technically opposed, do not fit your definition. Another third is OK with it.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Not quite true. It is more a third thinks it goes too far, and fit your definition. Another third want it to go further, and while technically opposed, do not fit your definition. Another third is OK with it.


I saw different figures. Some polls showed up to 60+% were not in favor of Obamacare. So polls evidently not a good source for whether or not folks are for this, IMO. November's election will be the test.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I saw different figures. Some polls showed up to 60+% were not in favor of Obamacare. So polls evidently not a good source for whether or not folks are for this, IMO. November's election will be the test.

You have to dig deeper and see what they're opposing. Some try not to see all the information.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

You have to dig deeper and see what they're opposing. Some try not to see all the information.


Hell I heard about one poll where 10% didn't know that the SOCTUS had made their decision. And 5% didn't even know about the bill or what it was.

IMO, there are maybe 50% of the people that really know what is happening, the others just go with the flow. I guess they're banking on "someone else" making their decisions for them.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Hell I heard about one poll where 10% didn't know that the SOCTUS had made their decision. And 5% didn't even know about the bill or what it was.

IMO, there are maybe 50% of the people that really know what is happening, the others just go with the flow. I guess they're banking on "someone else" making their decisions for them.

Well, I see a lot of misinformation on these boards, and we're suppose to be more informed. I think before people weigh in, they should know what they are weighing on. But that's just me. ;)
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2



So you're using Romney to legitimize Obama? Maybe we should elect the teacher instead of settling for the student...
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

So you're using Romney to legitimize Obama? Maybe we should elect the teacher instead of settling for the student...

Mostly we just think it's funny that you guys acted so mad about healthcare reform, then out of everybody in the world you could have chosen as your candidate, you picked one of the like 4 people in the world who has enacted exactly the same thing. Talk about eating crow... It just underscores what a shamble of random, pointless, anger the right has devolved into. It doesn't even seem to involve thinking at all any more. Just anger.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Mostly we just think it's funny that you guys acted so mad about healthcare reform, then out of everybody in the world you could have chosen as your candidate, you picked one of the like 4 people in the world who has enacted exactly the same thing. Talk about eating crow... It just underscores what a shamble of random, pointless, anger the right has devolved into. It doesn't even seem to involve thinking at all any more. Just anger.

Rick Santorum was right about one (and only one) thing: if Republicans want to run against Obamacare, there is no worse person in the country to do it than Mitt Romney.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Rick Santorum was right about one (and only one) thing: if Republicans want to run against Obamacare, there is no worse person in the country to do it than Mitt Romney.

perhaps only because so many people are ignorant of the tenth amendment
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Mostly we just think it's funny that you guys acted so mad about healthcare reform, then out of everybody in the world you could have chosen as your candidate, you picked one of the like 4 people in the world who has enacted exactly the same thing. Talk about eating crow... It just underscores what a shamble of random, pointless, anger the right has devolved into. It doesn't even seem to involve thinking at all any more. Just anger.

You sir, have misjudged me. I harbor no anger over this. But to be sure many on ‘my side’ are angry, unjustly I believe. The PPACA was American politics at its zenith, no more no less. As to Romney my preference was Huntsman but I will choose Romney over Obama essentially due to his executive experience. I have and always will think governors make better presidents than legislators…but that’s my opinion.
 
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