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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Boo Radley said:
:roll: I did ask you why partisans think that a ruling they don't like means there is something wrong with the judges. Maybe you can answer that? :roll:
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Why did the left go crazy about Citizens United? Because the left saw it as an illegitimate power grab. That's why President Obama beat on the Supreme Court at his State of the Nation speech a couple of years ago. It's the political culture that requires we fight to the death. It's the way America does business in this age.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

jerry7 said:
How does the 3.8% tax on real estate work exactly? I have heard that it applies to any house sold for $500,000 and above. What if someone is holding a mortgage for 350 thousand and sells for 500 grand? Your walking away with 150 grand but have to pay a new tax of $19,000. Is this correct? If so that is quite a hit.
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I don't know. The answer will probably be somewhere in the 13,000 pages of regulations being prepared for promulgation. It may be a situation where the IRS collects the tax on the gross sales price and lets you file a request for a waiver or reduced payment the way FIRPTA works for nonresident aliens. Time will tell. Hire a high priced lawyer. You can't go wrong by hiring expensive legal advice. Everyone should do it. :)
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Albert Di Salvo said:
I don't know. The answer will probably be somewhere in the 13,000 pages of regulations being prepared for promulgation. It may be a situation where the IRS collects the tax on the gross sales price and lets you file a request for a waiver or reduced payment the way FIRPTA works for nonresident aliens. Time will tell. Hire a high priced lawyer. You can't go wrong by hiring expensive legal advice. Everyone should do it. :)
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Wait...you're saying that Congress passed the bill and we STILL don't know what's in it?!? That nice lady Nancy Pelosi told another whopper? Devastating!
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

jerry7 said:
Wait...you're saying that Congress passed the bill and we STILL don't know what's in it?!? That nice lady Nancy Pelosi told another whopper? Devastating!
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That's just the reality of modern day legislation. It isn't anything deceptive or anything, that's just how it works for everything. The actual legislation passed by Congress sets up high level goals, it creates administrative agencies or positions or departments within agencies that are then tasked with coming up with the more specific regulations, then through a mix of agency and court decisions it continually gets more fleshed out and changes shape over time. That isn't just health care, that's how every major piece of legislation works. The major environmental statutes, for example, continue to generate tons of new regulations and directives and whatnot every day. Life is just way, way, too complicated to like spell out everything we'll ever need to know to totally redesign the health care system in a nice neat 10 page bill.
 
Malignant bureaucracy. It's the American way. Love it or leave it.

Screw 10-pages. All it would have taken was ten words:

"The Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution is hereby overturned."
 
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Neomalthusian said:
Malignant bureaucracy. It's the American way. Love it or leave it.

Screw 10-pages. All it would have taken was ten words:

"The Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution is hereby overturned."
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The 10th amendment has no meaning. It's just a tautology- that which has not been granted has not been granted. How can you overturn a tautology? What would that even mean lol?
 
teamosil said:
The 10th amendment has no meaning.
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Thanks to the SCOTUS and the corruptocrats in Congress whose lust for power is infinite, you're absolutely right. Congratulations, mission accomplished.
 
Neomalthusian said:
Thanks to the SCOTUS and the corruptocrats in Congress whose lust for power is infinite, you're absolutely right. Congratulations, mission accomplished.
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No. It never meant anything. All it says is that which is not granted isn't granted. That would be true whether the 10th existed or not. It's just a tautology
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Albert Di Salvo said:
Why did the left go crazy about Citizens United? Because the left saw it as an illegitimate power grab. That's why President Obama beat on the Supreme Court at his State of the Nation speech a couple of years ago. It's the political culture that requires we fight to the death. It's the way America does business in this age.
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That's seriously hyperbolic and full of wild assumptions, unsupported assumptions.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

teamosil said:
That's just the reality of modern day legislation. It isn't anything deceptive or anything, that's just how it works for everything. The actual legislation passed by Congress sets up high level goals, it creates administrative agencies or positions or departments within agencies that are then tasked with coming up with the more specific regulations, then through a mix of agency and court decisions it continually gets more fleshed out and changes shape over time. That isn't just health care, that's how every major piece of legislation works. The major environmental statutes, for example, continue to generate tons of new regulations and directives and whatnot every day. Life is just way, way, too complicated to like spell out everything we'll ever need to know to totally redesign the health care system in a nice neat 10 page bill.
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It's not that we don't know what's in it, because it has been throughly read by now. However, laws take a life of their own and we can't say with any certainty how it will play out. This gives rise to wild rumors and speculation.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Boo Radley said:
It's not that we don't know what's in it, because it has been throughly read by now. However, laws take a life of their own and we can't say with any certainty how it will play out. This gives rise to wild rumors and speculation.
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And rightly so. We were told numerous times this was not a TAX, the president. But IT'S A TAX. We were assured this was going to be paid for and we wouldn't have to change anything. "We the people" were lied to by everyone involved.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Billy the Kid said:
And rightly so. We were told numerous times this was not a TAX, the president. But IT'S A TAX. We were assured this was going to be paid for and we wouldn't have to change anything. "We the people" were lied to by everyone involved.
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Four Supreme Court justices -- all conservative -- say that it isn't a tax. Are they lying, too?

And of course Mitt Romney agrees with them ... and disagrees with them. :lol:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
Four Supreme Court justices -- all conservative -- say that it isn't a tax. Are they lying, too?

And of course Mitt Romney agrees with them ... and disagrees with them. :lol:
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Well, if we go back to stephanopoulos interview where Obama originally claimed it wasn't a tax, his justifications for doing so were rather weak, to say the least. Which made it seem more political ploy, than a well thought out, and articulable, position.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dr. Chuckles said:
Well, if we go back to stephanopoulos interview where Obama originally claimed it wasn't a tax, his justifications for doing so were rather weak, to say the least. Which made it seem more political ploy, than a well thought out, and articulable, position.
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Lots of Constitutional lawyers agree with the President that the mandate should have come under the Commerce Clause - the SCOTUS disagreed with that view. How was the President to know in advance what the Court's ruling would be in the matter?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Somerville said:
Lots of Constitutional lawyers agree with the President that the mandate should have come under the Commerce Clause - the SCOTUS disagreed with that view. How was the President to know in advance what the Court's ruling would be in the matter?
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my post had nothing to do with the POTUS merely disagreeing with anyone, it had to do with his complete failure to argue any legitimate reason why it wasn't a tax. In fact, during the entire interview he does nothing but dodge the question by articulating the benefits of the plan, then simply rejects the notion that it's a tax, without ever explaining why, when cornered on the issue.

hence, it came of as someone trying to sell policy, disingenuously
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
Four Supreme Court justices -- all conservative -- say that it isn't a tax. Are they lying, too?

And of course Mitt Romney agrees with them ... and disagrees with them. :lol:
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You been living in a cave or was your hearing aid turned off?

I hate to repeat this for the umpteenth time, but the Justice Dept, you know Obama's guys, argued before the SOTUS that this was a TAX. The Supreme Court allowed has how this was a TAX. So, where were you when all this went down?

IT'S A TAX. And every swinging ****** is going to have to pay for it. Well, those that actually pay taxes are going to pay for it. Those on the govt dole will continue as planned.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dr. Chuckles said:
my post had nothing to do with the POTUS merely disagreeing with anyone, it had to do with his complete failure to argue any legitimate reason why it wasn't a tax. In fact, during the entire interview he does nothing but dodge the question by articulating the benefits of the plan, then simply rejects the notion that it's a tax, without ever explaining why, when cornered on the issue.

hence, it came of as someone trying to sell policy, disingenuously
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[bold emphasis added by bubba]
but we must also recognize that such public policy passed supreme court scrutiny
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

justabubba said:
[bold emphasis added by bubba]
but we must also recognize that such public policy passed supreme court scrutiny
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Surely, but not based on any argument articulated by Obama (if you can even call them arguments), in that interview. The inverse to this is that the republicans were moaning, immediately after that interview, how the president was a stupid liar and it was clearly a tax...
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dr. Chuckles said:
Surely, but not based on any argument articulated by Obama (if you can even call them arguments), in that interview. The inverse to this is that the republicans were moaning, immediately after that interview, how the president was a stupid liar and it was clearly a tax...
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you want it both ways it seems
it was Obama's solicitor who argued before the supreme court that the penalty was allowable under the tax provisions you and others insist
but when that solicitor's argument prevails you then want to insist that Obama played no role in such argument
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

justabubba said:
you want it both ways it seems
it was Obama's solicitor who argued before the supreme court that the penalty was allowable under the tax provisions you and others insist
but when that solicitor's argument prevails you then want to insist that Obama played no role in such argument
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1) how do I want it both ways? first, I never really took a strong position on the supreme court case. Secondly, I'm pretty strongly pro-reform (though I do think the ACA is a cure that might be worse than the disease, and favor something more along the lines of single payer)

2) I pointed to the original republican rejection to highlight that both sides were politically milking the mandate issue

3) Anyone who makes an ass out of themselves, making hysterically disingenuous arguments, opens themselves up to criticism, even the president
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dr. Chuckles said:
Surely, but not based on any argument articulated by Obama (if you can even call them arguments), in that interview. The inverse to this is that the republicans were moaning, immediately after that interview, how the president was a stupid liar and it was clearly a tax...
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What's amazing is that conservatives can't seem to recognize that this is a two-edged sword. Naturally they argued all along that the mandate was NOT a tax and was unconstitutional as an improper exercise of the commerce clause.

In other words, BOTH sides argued that it was not a tax. But now that the SC has ruled that it is a tax penalty, somehow only OBAMA is a liar! :lol:

Incredible.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Not sure if the above was directed at me, but that was the entire point of me posting that; to highlight the republican hypocrisy, as well
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Billy the Kid said:
And rightly so. We were told numerous times this was not a TAX, the president. But IT'S A TAX. We were assured this was going to be paid for and we wouldn't have to change anything. "We the people" were lied to by everyone involved.
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A "tax" that you can choose not to pay. You know, like sales taxes.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
What's amazing is that conservatives can't seem to recognize that this is a two-edged sword. Naturally they argued all along that the mandate was NOT a tax and was unconstitutional as an improper exercise of the commerce clause.

In other words, BOTH sides argued that it was not a tax. But now that the SC has ruled that it is a tax penalty, somehow only OBAMA is a liar! :lol:

Incredible.
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Because even now, after the fact he has surrogates arguing that it is not, in fact, a tax. It is upheld only on the idea that the mandate is construed to be a tax---if it is not a tax, the bill is not legal as the commerce clause has limits to what it can do, but it is now argued that the tax power does not. Im not sure which is the worse idea, to be honest; government should have limits in all of its powers.
 
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