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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

You forgot that by law all persons recieve the same treatment in emergency rooms whether they have insurance or not. That law will not be changed so accident victims will be left on the side of the road to die. So stop the foolishness.

The foolishness is calling it "responsibility" when something is imposed on me against my will. There's no "responsibility" in that. I am just the subject of an external force imposing its will upon me. In this case, the government is assuming responsibility for my own health risk management and leaving me without any real decision to make. If I refuse to buy insurance, my consequence should be that I don't receive medical treatment unless I'm prepared to pay cash for it. It should be my responsibility to assess that choice and accept the benefits or consequences.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

You forgot that by law all persons recieve the same treatment in emergency rooms whether they have insurance or not. That law will not be changed so accident victims will be left on the side of the road to die. So stop the foolishness.

The only difference being that we'll get taxed to pay for it now.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

What is your point?



Taking responsibility for the conscious decision not to buy an insurance product means accepting the consequence that you won't get the benefit of insurance if something happens. There is no element of "taking responsibility" for the things one has zero element of choice over in the first place.

So by all means, let's let people finally be responsible again. Don't treat the uninsured unless they pay cash.

Those decisions have already been made on a societal level. They are beyond debate.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Those decisions have already been made on a societal level. They are beyond debate.

On a societal level? How the hell do you come to that?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

and if they decide to drive while uninsured and incur expenses as a result, the public will not have to cover those costs

in contrast, that person who elects not to acquire health coverage but who then requires medical attention they are unable to afford will receive that medical care. and the public will be required to pick up the tab

that public's ultimate guaranty of payment for medical services rendered is what makes the difference between the two scenarios

Driving is a privilege, living is, well, life. If caught driving without insurance mandated by the State, and not the Federal government BTW, in some jurisdictions you could lose your privilege to drive for a period of time. Surely, you are not saying that a person without HC should be killed are you?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Those decisions have already been made on a societal level. They are beyond debate.

Ok, if that's how you want to shut down a discussion, fine, but then let's stop playing pretend about "individual responsibility" when what you're really referring to is government taking the responsibility and imposing its will on the individual.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

from Albert DS


Health care quality will decrease for people who can't maintain their existing coverage because their employers decide to dump coverage and let the employees join exchanges. Lots of people with Cadillac plans who aren't in labor unions will find their employers scaling back coverage.

If you are correct, even partially, you have provided a great reason why people need to get strong labor unions in their workplace.

Medical equipment manufaturers will be subjected to a new level of regulation that will have the impact of reducing incentives for bringing new products to the market.

Could you please show us where this is the case beyond your allegation that it is so? This seems like speculation on your part. I could do the same in the opposite direction and suggest that thirty million new health care customers would encourage new product development. But that also would be just speculation.

The medical profession will change with bureacrats interposing themselves between physician and patient.

They do today and now. They are called insurance companies.

Seniors will experience a decline in the dollars devoted to their health care. Hundreds of billions will be diverted from Medicare to Obamacare.

Again, this is speculation on your part with no real evidence offered to support it.

Existing Medicaid patients will experience a decline in care as tens of millions of people are added to the rolls of Medicaid.

More speculation.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Look on the bright side of Obamacare. At least now we will have more IRS agents. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that what everyone wants?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Those decisions have already been made on a societal level. They are beyond debate.
Beyond debate?? Nothing in a free society is beyond debate. Funny how your hypocrisy on the matter doesn't let you put beyond debate decisions society has made like the definition of marriage. The truth is, you want debate to end on this issues where you agree with societies conclusions and want debate to continue unabated on those societal decisions you disagree with. Pathetic perspective on your part, but that is not surprising.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Justabubba, your comment "that public's ultimate guaranty of payment for medical services rendered is what makes the difference between the two scenarios", Without a choice now, and with 30 million additional people suddenly thrust into guaranteed health care coverage, how are we to assume that the "public" will somehow now magically be able to pay? So now these people just automatically have pockets of money to pay for the health care they are guaranteed to receive? It's foolish to assume that just because a new law has been handed down, that suddenly, people will begin to have a way to pay for health care.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

In my state of Michigan, one cannot obtain a drivers license without a automobile insurance policy in effect. Do you know of any states where this is NOT the case that you have insurance or proof of financial responsibility?

I got my license without having to have proof of insurance. See, people can have a license without having a car. Not to mention even if you have a license it does not mean that you will only drive your insured car and not some budies car that isnt' insured.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Ok, if that's how you want to shut down a discussion, fine, but then let's stop playing pretend about "individual responsibility" when what you're really referring to is government taking the responsibility and imposing its will on the individual.

it might shock you but I would agree that there might be some long term merit in a society where we tell somebody "sorry but you screwed up and we will not treat you... we will not feed you... we will not house you... or we will not do anything for you. You want to be stupid and take a chance of death? So die already."

However, that is NOT the society we live in. That has already been decided and this health care decision changes nothing in that regard even if Roberts had flipped to the other side.

So its irrelevant to the current discussion.
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

LOL! Yes, it certainly is comforting to know these agents will provide us with the health care we deserve.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Here's a history question for everyone:

Did the Supreme Court decision in Dredd Scott end debate on a societal level about slavery or did it set the stage for the Civil War?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I got my license without having to have proof of insurance. See, people can have a license without having a car. Not to mention even if you have a license it does not mean that you will only drive your insured car and not some budies car that isnt' insured.

You dodged my question. Again:

In my state of Michigan, one cannot obtain a drivers license without a automobile insurance policy in effect. Do you know of any states where this is NOT the case that you have insurance or proof of financial responsibility?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The foolishness is calling it "responsibility" when something is imposed on me against my will. There's no "responsibility" in that. I am just the subject of an external force imposing its will upon me. In this case, the government is assuming responsibility for my own health risk management and leaving me without any real decision to make. If I refuse to buy insurance, my consequence should be that I don't receive medical treatment unless I'm prepared to pay cash for it. It should be my responsibility to assess that choice and accept the benefits or consequences.

We live in a civilized nation that cares for our sick and injured because it is the right thing to do. The mandate simply says that everybody has a responsibility to prepare for the possibility of needing that care, whether it is by paying the "tax" or purchasing insurance. You can avoid all this by simply committing suicide as that is the only way you can be sure not to need medical help in the future. And sorry, if you have a accident we are not going to leave your mangled body by the side of the road because YOU wanted it that way. It's inhuman.
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

it might shock you but I would agree that there might be some long term merit in a society where we tell somebody "sorry but you screwed up and we will not treat you... we will not feed you... we will not house you... or we will not do anything for you. You want to be stupid and take a chance of death? So die already."

However, that is NOT the society we live in. That has already been decided and this health care decision changes nothing in that regard even if Roberts had flipped to the other side.

So its irrelevant to the current discussion.

The manner in which, and how much, we support is very much still debatable.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Beyond debate?? Nothing in a free society is beyond debate. Funny how your hypocrisy on the matter doesn't let you put beyond debate decisions society has made like the definition of marriage. The truth is, you want debate to end on this issues where you agree with societies conclusions and want debate to continue unabated on those societal decisions you disagree with. Pathetic perspective on your part, but that is not surprising.

So knock yourself out and start debating 24/7/365. Then come back here in ten years and report on your progress to turn America into a society where we will allow people to die or starve or freeze to death because they were lazy or stupid or irresponsible or just made bad choices.

go for it.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The manner in which, and how much, we support is very much still debatable.

We debate about the margins and details - not about the basic decision at the core.

As a society, we argue about the number of angels dancing on the pin - not about IF there are angels dancing on the pin.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

it might shock you but I would agree that there might be some long term merit in a society where we tell somebody "sorry but you screwed up and we will not treat you... we will not feed you... we will not house you... or we will not do anything for you. You want to be stupid and take a chance of death? So die already."

I like the drama sprinkled in at the end there. Appeals to pity always really get me.:roll:

However, that is NOT the society we live in. That has already been decided and this health care decision changes nothing in that regard even if Roberts had flipped to the other side.

So its irrelevant to the current discussion.

I repeat: if you're going to shut down and just declare "not in THIS society!!" that's fine. I expect that level of engagement from you when cornered on the issue of responsibility. I'm just pointing out that the responsibility lies in the entity that decides. In this case, that I need to buy health insurance. If that is MY decision, based on MY assessment, then it's MY responsibility. If government is deciding I need to buy insurance, and implementing measures that force me to do so, then the responsibility for that decision is assumed by the government, and I'm just the unthinking citizen that complies. I don't have any responsibility to decide whether health insurance is necessary. It's been made for me. All I have to do is... whatever I'm told.

Again, the decision-maker is the entity with the responsibility. So it takes massive spin to suggest that paying a penalty or else buying insurance as is federally mandated of me is an example of me "taking responsibility."
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Here's a history question for everyone:

Did the Supreme Court decision in Dredd Scott end debate on a societal level about slavery or did it set the stage for the Civil War?

That you would compare a law which will maybe impose a couple hundred dollar fine on the hypothetical group of people who make enough money that they can easily afford insurance, but choose not to buy it for inexplicable reason, to the systematic enslavement, murder, torture and rape of many generations of an entire race shines a pretty bright light on how out of touch the right has gotten. The rhetoric is so out of control that the right is no longer connected to reality at all.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Here's a history question for everyone:

Did the Supreme Court decision in Dredd Scott end debate on a societal level about slavery or did it set the stage for the Civil War?
I am sure the hypocritical hayracists of the era were all for ending debate on an issue like slavery that societies throughout all of human history had decided was settled.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I like the drama sprinkled in at the end there. Appeals to pity always really get me.:roll:



I repeat: if you're going to shut down and just declare "not in THIS society!!" that's fine. I expect that level of engagement from you when cornered on the issue of responsibility. I'm just pointing out that the responsibility lies in the entity that decides that I need to buy health insurance. If that is MY decision, it's my responsibility. If government is deciding I need to buy insurance, it's government's responsibility, and I'm just the unthinking citizen that complies. I don't have any responsibility to decide whether health insurance is necessary. It's been made for me. All I have to do is... whatever I'm told.

Again, the decision-maker is the entity with the responsibility. So it takes massive spin to suggest that paying a penalty or else buying insurance is an example of people "taking responsibility."

Again - the larger question has already been long decided and I see no real move to change that. Feel free to prove my observation wrong.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I am sure the hypocritical hayracists of the era were all for ending debate on an issue like slavery that societies throughout all of human history had decided was settled.

What? Haymarket is a liberal. Slavery was a right wing thing. What are you talking about?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

So knock yourself out and start debating 24/7/365. Then come back here in ten years and report on your progress to turn America into a society where we will allow people to die or starve or freeze to death because they were lazy or stupid or irresponsible or just made bad choices.

go for it.
You made it this far without dying or starving or freezing to death. From my perspective, that means just about anyone can.
 
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