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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I have a BS in Liberal Arts (BSL), and I'm doing ok.

What was your degree in? Do you have an advanced degree? What do you do for a living?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Which would mean that 50% of sitting Democrats describe themselves as conservative. I doubt you could substantiate that.

No, no. I am saying that Republicans get more of the conservatives than Democrats do, but Democrats get almost all the liberals and most of the moderates, so it ends up with the nation split about 50/50.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

the blue dog coalition is alive and well. A few other factors come into play. While more of the country may identify as conservative, it doesn't mean they vote. voting patterns for the last century are about 50/50 in totality, this is also true for the last 10-15 years.

"Blue Dog membership was nearly cut in half by the 2010 Election, in which 26 members were re-elected but 28 were either defeated or chose not to run for re-election.
The membership is expected to decline further in the 113th Congress. Membership is already down to 25 with the resignation of Jane Harman, one of their more liberal members. Furthermore, four prominent remaining Blue Dogs, Dennis Cardoza of California, Dan Boren of Oklahoma, Mike Ross of Arkansas, and Heath Shuler of North Carolina have announced their retirement; one member, Joe Donnelly of Indiana, is running for Senate (partially due to Republican redistricting efforts); and more members, such as North Carolina's Mike McIntyre as well as Georgia's John Barrow, have been or will be targeted by Republicans in redistricting efforts.[23] Additionally, the group is likely to shrink further with the defeat of Jason Altmire and Tim Holden in the 2012 Pennsylvania primary by more liberal politicians.[24]
Freshman Blue Dogs in the House are sometimes nicknamed "Blue Pups".[5]"

Blue Dog Coalition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yeah, wik. Quick reference :shrug:


The huge minority turn out, while a factor, was not what put him over the edge, which was the youth vote.

the "youth vote" statistically includes the increase in minority turnout.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

No, no. I am saying that Republicans get more of the conservatives than Democrats do, but Democrats get almost all the liberals and most of the moderates, so it ends up with the nation split about 50/50.

They don't get most of the moderates. The moderates, or registered independants equal in number the Democrats and Republicans. It's the way they swing that normally determines the outcome. If they mostly leaned left, we'd have had mostly Democrats. Yet, the house lost majority, and the Senate lost super majority.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

"Blue Dog membership was nearly cut in half by the 2010 Election, in which 26 members were re-elected but 28 were either defeated or chose not to run for re-election.
The membership is expected to decline further in the 113th Congress. Membership is already down to 25 with the resignation of Jane Harman, one of their more liberal members. Furthermore, four prominent remaining Blue Dogs, Dennis Cardoza of California, Dan Boren of Oklahoma, Mike Ross of Arkansas, and Heath Shuler of North Carolina have announced their retirement; one member, Joe Donnelly of Indiana, is running for Senate (partially due to Republican redistricting efforts); and more members, such as North Carolina's Mike McIntyre as well as Georgia's John Barrow, have been or will be targeted by Republicans in redistricting efforts.[23] Additionally, the group is likely to shrink further with the defeat of Jason Altmire and Tim Holden in the 2012 Pennsylvania primary by more liberal politicians.[24]
Freshman Blue Dogs in the House are sometimes nicknamed "Blue Pups".[5]"

Blue Dog Coalition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yeah, wik. Quick reference :shrug:

I agree, it is in decline, but still healthy in my opinion. This is also why I expanded my point to mention more groups as they all come into play.

the "youth vote" statistically includes the increase in minority turnout.

of course it does, minorities have children too.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

What was your degree in? Do you have an advanced degree? What do you do for a living?

It was in Liberal Arts (hist/sociology). I have an advanced degree in Intelligence Mgmt and am working on a second. I was doing fine without the graduate degree, though. In fact, it hasn't affected my income as of yet.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I agree, it is in decline, but still healthy in my opinion. This is also why I expanded my point to mention more groups as they all come into play.

Down by half is still healthy?

of course it does, minorities have children too.

Well, there ya go. To say they were mostly college students is inaccurate.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

Moderator's Warning:
Time to get back on the topic of the Health Care law and the Supreme court ruling on it. Thank you.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Down by half is still healthy?



Well, there ya go. To say they were mostly college students is inaccurate.

can't take this further it seems :(

I will agree to disagree as you are reading way too much into the points I am making.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

It was in Liberal Arts (hist/sociology). I have an advanced degree in Intelligence Mgmt and am working on a second. I was doing fine without the graduate degree, though. In fact, it hasn't affected my income as of yet.

Cream rises to the top. Good for you. But I suspect you aren't representative. Everyone I talk to who works at Starbucks has a liberal arts degree.

45,000 law students graduated from law school this year. Half of them will never find a job in the law. They made foolish investments without considering the cost/benefit ratio of their investments in education. There isn't a market for them. Now they are weighed down by indebtedness. Much the same thing is true for most liberal arts grads imo.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

Moderator's Warning:
Time to get back on the topic of the Health Care law and the Supreme court ruling on it. Thank you.

Ok...................
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

from Albert DS

You have to accept corrosive internal oppositon if you seek to transform my side out of existnece. I'm out to cause your side to fail. Sabotage is perfectly legitimate.

I would hope we are all on the side of America and its people.

the Court seemed to say that in their ruling.
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

from Albert DS



I would hope we are all on the side of America and its people.

the Court seemed to say that in their ruling.

The court said the law was constitutional, and nothing more.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

can't take this further it seems :(

I will agree to disagree as you are reading way too much into the points I am making.

I don't think I'm reading to much into them...I think I'm taking them at face value. To be honest, I wish there were more Blue Dogs. I tend to vote for them.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

from Albert DS



I would hope we are all on the side of America and its people.

the Court seemed to say that in their ruling.

There is a duality in life. For everything one gains there is something one forfeits.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

There is a duality in life. For everything one gains there is something one forfeits.

That seems counter to the usual Republican talking point ... that economics is not a zero sum game.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The court said the law was constitutional, and nothing more.

When one of the most conservative justices in the last seventy years sides with the four more liberal judges, it says a whole lot more than that.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

There is a duality in life. For everything one gains there is something one forfeits.

While that sounds decent enough on a "learn this well young grasshopper" level, it is mostly a cliche and says really nothing about the subject being discussed.

In the nation gaining protections from the Health Care Act, what is it exactly that we are losing?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

That seems counter to the usual Republican talking point ... that economics is not a zero sum game.

Do you think I'm a Republican? Not bloody damn likely. Polities come and go. Ideals survive. I'm more of a fusion between classical liberalism and confucianism.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

While that sounds decent enough on a "learn this well young grasshopper" level, it is mostly a cliche and says really nothing about the subject being discussed.

In the nation gaining protections from the Health Care Act, what is it exactly that we are losing?

Here's a biggie...how about loosing the right to choose what we don't want to buy?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

While that sounds decent enough on a "learn this well young grasshopper" level, it is mostly a cliche and says really nothing about the subject being discussed.

In the nation gaining protections from the Health Care Act, what is it exactly that we are losing?

Obamacare is part of the quest for Social Justice as interpreted by the left. Social Justice as so interpreted requires movement towards equality of outcome. This form of equality can only be achieved at the expense of that component element of the ideal of individual liberty which I call personal autonomy.

There is a tension between the ideals of individual liberty and equality as denoted above. This is the tension between classical liberalism and post-modern liberalism. The type of liberty I believe in can be traced back to the American Revolution, the European Enlightenment, the Roman Republic, and Classical Greece.

The type of equality you believe in can be traced back to the French Revolution, Hegel and Marx.

There is a similar tension between environmentalism and Social Justice. It's just that most liberals cannot perceive this tension. But here in coastal California the relationship between environmentalism and human suffering is unmistakeable.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Here's a biggie...how about loosing the right to choose what we don't want to buy?

Are you under the impression that you had the right to buy or not buy every single thing you want to buy before the SC decision? What about the decision changed that in any real way?

Many things come with a price. Now you know what the price is for not being responsible for your own insurance so the rest of society does not have to buy for you what you would not buy for yourself.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Obamacare is part of the quest for Social Justice as interpreted by the left. Social Justice as so interpreted requires movement towards equality of outcome. This form of equality can only be achieved at the expense of that component element of the ideal of individual liberty which I call personal autonomy.

There is a tension between the ideals of individual liberty and equality as denoted above. This is the tension between classical liberalism and post-modern liberalism. The type of liberty I believe in can be traced back to the American Revolution, the European Enlightenment, the Roman Republic, and Classical Greece.

The type of equality you believe in can be traced back to the French Revolution, Hegel and Marx.

There is a similar tension between environmentalism and Social Justice. It's just that most liberals cannot perceive this tension. But here in coastal California the relationship between environmentalism and human suffering is unmistakeable.

The Marx I know the most about is Groucho.

The idea that we chose between what you call 'liberty' and what you call 'equality of outcome' is a false framing of the issue.

People are not equal and no amount of government can ever change that. What government can do is to use its powers to help build a society which is sustainable and a place where people want to live and work as citizens with equal rights.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Obamacare is part of the quest for Social Justice as interpreted by the left. Social Justice as so interpreted requires movement towards equality of outcome. This form of equality can only be achieved at the expense of that component element of the ideal of individual liberty which I call personal autonomy.

There is a tension between the ideals of individual liberty and equality as denoted above. This is the tension between classical liberalism and post-modern liberalism. The type of liberty I believe in can be traced back to the American Revolution, the European Enlightenment, the Roman Republic, and Classical Greece.

The type of equality you believe in can be traced back to the French Revolution, Hegel and Marx.

There is a similar tension between environmentalism and Social Justice. It's just that most liberals cannot perceive this tension. But here in coastal California the relationship between environmentalism and human suffering is unmistakeable.

Sure, there can be tension between any two policy goals. You balance and try to optimize them together.
 
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