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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #81
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Perhaps they just have fewer morons, both in their general population and in their gov'ts. Many nations have much better schools too, and spend far less on education. Many nations have been safe from foreign attack, don't play world policeman, and get by with far less military spending. Much of what our gov't does, and our population meekly allows, does not make much sense, yet we plod along building massive debt and hoping for change. Any nation that taxes wages, to support out-of-wedlock child birth, is not thinking very clearly. USA, USA, USA...
    Why would morons be more frequently distributed here than anywhere else in the world? Be careful here...
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  2. #82
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, nonetheless, the more preventative care and the more accessible it is, and the cheaper, the less costly medical care ends up being overall.
    This isn't a complete sentence, but if I'm interpreting you correctly, you think that opening wide the public's access to preventive care makes medical care cheaper overall. Yes?

    This is false.

    Our outpatient/clinic care is more than twice as expensive as Sweden's, which has the second-most expensive in the world. Letting the entire population rack up whatever amount of this they need to "prevent" illness is not a cost-saver.

    Preventive care is cost-saving only with respect to a certain few conditions which are relatively cheap to screen AND much cheaper to fix if caught early. But because they're so cheap, people should largely be able to pay for them out of pocket. Example, a colonoscopy every so often past the age of 50 should not be a bank-breaker, and is an effective preventive measure because they can snip out those pesky polyps.

    Recap: the reason that preventive care is not cost-effective here is because outpatient care is already astronomically more expensive here than anywhere else on Earth, so opening the floodgates of access just means we're spending oodles more per capita on our country's health care.

    Countries with better preventative care consistently trounce us both on quality and costs.
    That doesn't mean preventive care is the cause of either.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 06-29-12 at 11:25 PM.

  3. #83
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why would morons be more frequently distributed here than anywhere else in the world? Be careful here...
    As your cost, per student, of education increases, yet your nation continues to drop, in global education ranking, it begets more morons. These morons have been given very high self esteem, just look at their high grades, and don't even know that they are morons; so be careful here. As these morons vote they elect morons, as these morons govern they spend much more and accomplish much less.

    Look at what we NOW spend on medicare, per person annually (by state), and how we want to add many more to that program, as part of ObamaCare: What is the cost per person annually for medicaid

    Only a moron could call that wise use of tax money. ;-)
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-29-12 at 11:28 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #84
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    This isn't a complete sentence, but if I'm interpreting you correctly, you think that opening wide the public's access to preventive care makes medical care cheaper overall. Yes?

    This is false.

    That doesn't mean preventive care is the cause of either.
    Well, the World Health Organization, and really pretty much every organization that has studied the question certainly says that is the main factor. What studies is your point of view based on?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    It now appears that the dissent of the conservative Justices was at one time the majority opinion, and that Roberts changed his vote based on intimidation. He was intimidated by threats to delegitimize the Supreme Court if Obamacare wasn't validated. It may be that Chief Justice put his fears about the institution of the Supreme Court over his duty to interpret the Constitution. If this is true, Chief Justice Roberts breached his duty to the Constitution.
    We certainly have some....um, interesting takes ..... on various items on this board. I, for one, appreciate the active imaginations of some.....

  6. #86
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    because this law will help the greater-good of our society, I support it.

    and I even though I have issues with the legal arguments of the SCOTUS, I still support their decision, especially from a moral perspective.
    As I've said before...the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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  7. #87
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    You mean they disagree with Socialized HC that liberals try to label as "Health Care Reform"

    Socialized Medicine is not Health Care Reform.
    This bill is not socialized medicine, you don't know what that word means.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Tort reform - A minor issue. In any case, this *was* offered as a bargaining chip to get Republicans on board. Obama said many times that he was willing to play ball on tort reform. No dice.
    Youre kidding. No I mean really, you have to be joking with that stance.

    The costs of defensive medicine
    In recent studies, more than 90 percent of physicians reported practicing positive defensive medicine in the past 12 months; unnecessary imaging tests accounted for 43 percent of these actions. More than 92 percent of surgeons reported ordering unnecessary tests to protect themselves.

    Another study found a direct relationship between higher malpractice awards and malpractice premiums and Medicare spending, especially with imaging services. The increased spending, however, had no measurable effects on mortality.

    In a recent Gallup survey, physicians attributed 34 percent of overall healthcare costs to defensive medicine and 21 percent of their practice to be defensive in nature. Specifically, they estimated that 35 percent of diagnostic tests, 29 percent of lab tests, 19 percent of hospitalizations, 14 percent of prescriptions, and 8 percent of surgeries were performed to avoid lawsuits.

    Liability reform has been estimated to result in anywhere from a 5 percent to a 34 percent reduction in medical expenditures by reducing defensive medicine practices, with estimates of savings from $54 billion to $650 billion.
    http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2012/02/d...edic-medicine/
    Vanderbilt University Medical Center researchers estimate that U.S. orthopaedic surgeons create approximately $2 billion per year in unnecessary health care costs associated with orthopaedic care due to the practice of defensive medicine.
    Defensive medicine adds billions to healthcare costs | Healthcare Finance News
    ATLANTA -- Physicians estimate the cost of defensive medicine to be between 26 and 34 percent of total annual healthcare costs, according to a recent report by Jackson Healthcare. At an estimated $2.5 trillion in annual spending, this means $650-850 billion is spent each year on medical orders intended to avoid lawsuits rather than treat patients.
    UConn Advance - February 23, 2009 - Study shows defensive medicine widespread
    The cost of ‘defensive’ medicine – tests, procedures, referrals, hospitalizations, or prescriptions ordered by physicians fearful of lawsuits – is huge and widespread, according to a study by the Massachusetts Medical Society and UConn Health Center researcher Robert Aseltine Jr.

    The study is based on a survey – believed to be the first of its kind – that was completed by more than 900 physicians in Massachusetts. It asked about their use of seven tests and procedures: plain film X-rays, CT scans, magnetic resonance imaging, ultrasounds, laboratory testing, specialty referrals and consultations, and hospital admissions.

    About 83 percent reported practicing defensive medicine, with an average of between 18 percent and 28 percent of tests, procedures, referrals, and consultations and 13 percent of hospitalizations ordered for defensive reasons.

    Such practices were estimated to cost a minimum of $1.4 billion per year in Massachusetts.

  9. #89
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Are you denying that Republicans were still touting an individual mandate as a potential source of compromise as late as summer 2009? Are you gonna make me find the quotes to prove you wrong?

    Nope. They (along with every other Republican who had previously advocated a health care system which looked a lot like PPACA) decided to put raw partisanship ahead of their country, and did an about-face.
    Let me help:

    See Mitt Romney Promote an Individual Mandate - YouTube





    Agreed.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    It now appears that the dissent of the conservative Justices was at one time the majority opinion, and that Roberts changed his vote based on intimidation. He was intimidated by threats to delegitimize the Supreme Court if Obamacare wasn't validated. It may be that Chief Justice put his fears about the institution of the Supreme Court over his duty to interpret the Constitution. If this is true, Chief Justice Roberts breached his duty to the Constitution.
    Just so we all understand you..... I am hearing that you are upset about a Republican appointed SCOTUS justice being key in striking down a Republican challenge to a Republican idea (the Mandate was invented by the Heritage Foundation) that was implemented in Massachusetts by the current Republican nominee for POTUS?

    Sounds like the Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight to me.

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