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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    If that were true
    Are you denying that Republicans were still touting an individual mandate as a potential source of compromise as late as summer 2009? Are you gonna make me find the quotes to prove you wrong?

    Orrin Hatch and Chuck Grassley would have voted for Obamacare.
    Nope. They (along with every other Republican who had previously advocated a health care system which looked a lot like PPACA) decided to put raw partisanship ahead of their country, and did an about-face.

    You know there are going to be glitches and problems in the administration of Obamacare over the next decade. That's in the nature of all major legislation. Some of those problems will require legislative resolution.
    Agreed.

    How will the Democrats be able to fix those problems unless they control the Senate with sixty votes, the House of Representatives and the Presidency?
    A few possibilities:
    1. Perhaps another election will drive out all of the crazies who have taken over the GOP in the last three years, and the party will go back to the sane (if inadequate) health care positions they held in the late 2000s. And therefore compromise will be possible.
    2. Perhaps some of those problems will be fixable in exactly the way Republicans want to fix them anyway, and so they'll eagerly vote to fix them.
    3. Perhaps the Democrats will indeed get a commanding majority in the Senate, the House, and the White House.
    4. Perhaps the filibuster will be eliminated and they'll only need 50 votes in the Senate.
    5. Perhaps the ACA will become more politically popular, and the Republicans shrieking for repeal will simply slink away and stop making so much noise about it, allowing for more compromise among the adults.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-29-12 at 10:19 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    The supreme court long ago gave away its legitimacy...how can it be possible you have 4 justices ALWAYS vote one way and 4 justices ALWAYS vote the opposite of the other 4...with one swinger that swings back and forth...its nonesense has been for years.
    Well, I guess I have to agree with you.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    They did indeed reach out to conservatives. They jettisoned the public option and adopted the individual mandate to get a compromise, precisely because Republicans like Chuck Grassley and Orrin Hatch were telling them that they could find a broad consensus around an individual mandate as late as the summer of 2009. So the Democrats tried it...and the entire Republican Party did an about-face, gave them the finger, burnt down 20 years of intellectual groundwork they themselves had laid for the individual mandate, pissed on the ashes, and salted the earth so nothing could ever grow their again.

    Under those circumstances, what possible bipartisan agreement do you imagine was possible? As far as I can tell, the GOP doesn't even *have* a health care platform anymore, because their previous platform is now the law of the land in the form of PPACA.
    Actually, the bipartisanship that everyone says they long for was in opposition to the bill.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    The supreme court long ago gave away its legitimacy...how can it be possible you have 4 justices ALWAYS vote one way and 4 justices ALWAYS vote the opposite of the other 4...with one swinger that swings back and forth...its nonesense has been for years.
    In the last two courts, about 20% of rulings have been 5-4.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post

    3. Perhaps the Democrats will indeed get a commanding majority in the Senate, the House, and the White House.
    Didn't the Dems have that for a year? For all the "shrieking" about Republican obstructionism (as if the Dems never engage in such things), for awhile there, the Republicans couldn't "obstruct" anything, even when they deeply wanted to.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Are you denying that Republicans were still touting an individual mandate as a potential source of compromise as late as summer 2009? Are you gonna make me find the quotes to prove you wrong?
    Once the Tea Party came into existence that all became as meaningless as the career of Senator Richard Lugar.



    Nope. They (along with every other Republican who had previously advocated a health care system which looked a lot like PPACA) decided to put raw partisanship ahead of their country, and did an about-face.
    Both sides are totally partisan. In fact the Senate hasn't been this partisan since the administration of James Buchanan. What should be doesn't matter. What does matter is reality.



    Agreed.



    A few possibilities:
    1. Perhaps another election will drive out all of the crazies who have taken over the GOP in the last three years, and the party will go back to the sane (if inadequate) health care positions they held in the late 2000s. And therefore compromise will be possible.
    2. Perhaps some of those problems will be fixable in exactly the way Republicans want to fix them anyway, and so they'll eagerly vote to fix them.
    3. Perhaps the Democrats will indeed get a commanding majority in the Senate, the House, and the White House.
    4. Perhaps the filibuster will be eliminated and they'll only need 50 votes in the Senate.
    1. A new heaven and earth must be born before that is possible. You have no idea how deeply conservatives are aroused.

    2. Neither side believes in the good faith of the other side. When you don't believe that the other party to a negotiation has acted in good faith you set them up. You don't work with them.

    3. Only if George Bush becomes president again.

    4. Silencing half the population is a recipe for disaster. History warns against such an approach.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I pay CASH now for my medical care and see a doctor every three months, am on blood thinners for life and see no reason to buy insurance to cover NORMAL medical care, at 58 I am in "average" shape dispite having had major past medical problems. I get discounts of well over 60% because I pay cash at the time of my medical treatment, they don't even have to mail a bill to me. I buy my medications 90 days at a time, saving 66% (over the 30 day supply amount) AND get a cash discount for that as well.

    Much of our medical care cost inflation is BECAUSE of insurance and its associated massive paperwork overhead and payment delay. The preventive care is only as good as the patient is at following the doctors advice. If you are overweight and out of shape that is a PERSONAL problem that likely becomes a "medical" problem, there is no magic "get in shape" pill. Much of true preventive "care" is simply having a decent diet and execise routine.

    I have most of my "health" problems due to the accumulated damage from multiple motorcycle accidents and the related plates/screws, bone grafts and soft tissue damage from them. I "lived hard" and now must pay the price for it. I want only a "catastrophic" medical insurance policy that has a $5,000 annual deductable and pays 100% of medical costs beyond that, so ObamaCare for me is the problem and not the solution.
    Well, nonetheless, the more preventative care and the more accessible it is, and the cheaper, the less costly medical care ends up being overall. So while the scenarios you describe happen I'm sure, on balance, it seems to still be a very good idea. Countries with better preventative care consistently trounce us both on quality and costs.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    1. A new heaven and earth must be born before that is possible. You have no idea how deeply conservatives are aroused.
    I'm not necessarily saying THIS election. Maybe the next one, or the one after that.

    2. Neither side believes in the good faith of the other side. When you don't believe that the other party to a negotiation has acted in good faith you set them up. You don't work with them.
    The Democrats believed in the good faith of Republicans until the ACA. That's why they tried so hard for months during the summer of 2009 to get a compromise, until they realized that the Republicans were just ****ing with them and had no intention of giving any ground on anything.

    3. Only if George Bush becomes president again.
    A Bush-like figure is hardly out of the question. If the next Republican president overreaches it could happen again. Not that it's particularly LIKELY, just that it's a possibility.

    4. Silencing half the population is a recipe for disaster. History warns against such an approach.
    History? What are you talking about? The filibuster has only been abused for the last 20 years or so, and it has only been required for virtually every single piece of legislation for the last 3 years or so. And in any case, I'm not going to debate the wisdom of removing the filibuster here...it's just one possible way in which necessary modifications to the PPACA could be implemented.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    In the last two courts, about 20% of rulings have been 5-4.
    Ive been searching for 20 minutes and I cant find any information on what percentage of votes have been made by swing...Im not saying your incorrect...Im saying I cant find it.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, nonetheless, the more preventative care and the more accessible it is, and the cheaper, the less costly medical care ends up being overall. So while the scenarios you describe happen I'm sure, on balance, it seems to still be a very good idea. Countries with better preventative care consistently trounce us both on quality and costs.
    Perhaps they just have fewer morons, both in their general population and in their gov'ts. Many nations have much better schools too, and spend far less on education. Many nations have been safe from foreign attack, don't play world policeman, and get by with far less military spending. Much of what our gov't does, and our population meekly allows, does not make much sense, yet we plod along building massive debt and hoping for change. Any nation that taxes wages, to support out-of-wedlock child birth, is not thinking very clearly. USA, USA, USA...
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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