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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It is a fine in common parlance. Calling it a fine more accurately describes what it is than calling it a tax. That doesn't mean that the powers granted in the taxation clause don't enable Congress to do it.

    Like, here, what do you see as the difference between a "fine" and a "tax"? Seems to me that they're basically just two different spins on the same thing. Well, the taxation clause enables Congress to do that thing.
    It's a tax that is collected when someone does not do something the government requires. I understand completely why Obama and the democrats don't want to call it a tax, but you don't necesarily have to buy into their spin.

    Using your reasoning, we can argue that excise taxes are not taxes. Instead they are just fines for engaging in behaviour that the government doesn't want to encourage. While that is true, it does not change the fact that it is, in reality, a tax.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It is a fine in common parlance. Calling it a fine more accurately describes what it is than calling it a tax. That doesn't mean that the powers granted in the taxation clause don't enable Congress to do it.

    Like, here, what do you see as the difference between a "fine" and a "tax"? Seems to me that they're basically just two different spins on the same thing. Well, the taxation clause enables Congress to do that thing.
    The BIG difference with a fine, is that you must DO SOMETHING to warrant the fine, and can usually appeal it in court. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    The irony here is that when I argued a few months ago that the penalty was a legitimate use of the taxing power, every single conservative who responded swore up and down that the mandate was NOT A TAX!!

    I guess every single one of y'all are liars.
    Last edited by AdamT; 07-01-12 at 09:01 PM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The irony here is that when I argued a few months ago that the penalty was a legitimate use of the taxing power, every single conservative who responded swore up and down that the mandate was NOT A TAX!!

    I guess every single one of y'all are liars.
    It sounds like Roberts actually agreed with that, but caved to pressure exerted in the media and by Obama - at least if you believe CBS's reporting on the issue.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's right. It is totally obvious. That's why I was a bit baffled when you got so confused. Not every bill. Some bills are non-controversial enough that the majority party doesn't need to make any concessions at all. But, yes, pretty much all major bills, and certainly all major controversial bills contain many concessions to the other side. Health care is, of course, no exception.



    That's right. They made concessions to the GOP on those issues. The GOP/insurance industry/Tea Party managed to bring enough public pressure that the Democrats in swing states could only sign the bill after those concessions had been made. That is no different than what I've been saying over and over.
    No, it is different. Initially, you claimed that the bill was a "compromise" in which 'concessions were made to the GOP.' That is false. There was no compromise between house democrats and republicans, and there were no concessions made between house democrats and house republicans and you know it. THe democrats sought to pass a health care reform measure with 218 democrats. There was no compromise with the GOP, there were no concessions to the GOP. The dems rammed it through by coercing and bribing enough of their own members to get the job done. Had they actually made concessions and sought compromise, they would not have been run from office in 2010.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The BIG difference with a fine, is that you must DO SOMETHING to warrant the fine, and can usually appeal it in court. ;-)
    That's exactly why I would consider it more of a fine than a tax. They're being punished for trying to freeload.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The irony here is that when I argued a few months ago that the penalty was a legitimate use of the taxing power, every single conservative who responded swore up and down that the mandate was NOT A TAX!!

    I guess every single one of y'all are liars.
    You wouldnt happen to remember what thread that was would you? Because the only person I can remember who swore up and down that it wasnt a tax was Obama.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's exactly why I would consider it more of a fine than a tax. They're being punished for trying to freeload.
    If democrats are for punishing freeloaders with a fine or some kind then I am with you. Lets get started.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The irony here is that when I argued a few months ago that the penalty was a legitimate use of the taxing power, every single conservative who responded swore up and down that the mandate was NOT A TAX!!

    I guess every single one of y'all are liars.
    You were right and we were wrong. A broken clock is also right twice a day.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    No, it is different. Initially, you claimed that the bill was a "compromise" in which 'concessions were made to the GOP.' That is false. There was no compromise between house democrats and republicans, and there were no concessions made between house democrats and house republicans and you know it. THe democrats sought to pass a health care reform measure with 218 democrats. There was no compromise with the GOP, there were no concessions to the GOP. The dems rammed it through by coercing and bribing enough of their own members to get the job done. Had they actually made concessions and sought compromise, they would not have been run from office in 2010.
    I don't know what to tell you man. I explained it. You seem to understand. Not sure what the deal is. They had to make concessions to the Republicans to dull the impact of the teabagging and whatnot to try to protect their seats.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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