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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah... Of course it doesn't. Not sure what you mean. An energy company has the potential to create an oil spill or a nuclear disaster, for example. Nothing like that with software companies. So, they need to regulate energy companies more intensively.
    Do you think software could be a contributing factor to causing an oil spill or a nuclear disaster? Isn't this why DOD is making Cyber Command a top level warfare command?

    Maybe you were making sales software for a designer label.... ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Who else could do the regulation?
    Good question. I have in mind co-ops between industry, government, university R&D and environmental groups. And all data is public.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Be serious. The Dems essentially submitted a Republican plan, for Gods sake. The big Democratic addition was the public option, which they dropped because they needed a few republican votes.
    Exchanges were a Republican idea? Individual mandate? Even if they had been floated as a GOP idea, there is a big difference between floating the idea and making it policy. When it came time to make policy, GOP were not even invited into the room. Yes, the GOP was being jerks and not agreeing to anything. Both sides are responsible for the resulting pile of **** on the floor.

    That's just fantastic. There is another reason to get the Tea Party and OWS together. Maybe they would actually work together on solutions to this mess.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 07-01-12 at 07:22 PM.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What is NEVER discussed is that very few more people will get ANY better medical care yet the costs, and wait times, FOR ALL will increase,
    The data from every other developed country in the world suggests that you are wrong.

    I have yet to hear ANY rational argument for dropping obesity as a premium rate defining factor yet keeping smoking,
    I support allowing both as factors, within restrictions. Smoking is limited to 1.5-to-1, which seems fair. Obesity should probably be a bit less than that since it isn't entirely behavioral like smoking is. But yes, I agree it should be a factor.

    or removing gender yet keeping age.
    Neither should be allowed as factors, since people have no control over them. Age discrimination was heavily curtailed, but not eliminated by PPACA. There wasn't enough political support to eliminate it entirely. We can fight that battle another day.

    The law has many ODD and contrdictory things that are
    Well of course. It's a huge piece of legislation; those inevitably involve some horse-trading among legislators to get it passed. It doesn't need to be perfect.

    Not the least of which, is levying a fine or tax for simply paying cash for one's own medical care.
    Because if you don't have insurance, chances are you won't actually have enough cash to pay your medical bills. This tax pays for the likelihood that you'll stick the public with the bill.

    If I am not fortunate enough to recieve a tax free medical insurance benefit from my employer, is that now MY fault?
    Nope, but you should pay taxes on it like you do with the rest of your income. There's no reason to give preference to employers who compensate their employees with generous health benefits instead of generous salaries.

    Perhaps the PPACA should have made that employee benefit TAXABLE, as it surely benefits ONLY those that have it,
    I agree. PPACA opens the door to that possibility by taxing "Cadillac plans"; hopefully that can be expanded to ALL employer insurance plans in the future.

    since I am now to be taxed for simply lacking it. Not only do I not get that benefit, I must then pay a tax for not getting it. That is insane.
    You aren't taxed for not getting insurance from your employer, as long as you get it from somewhere else.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I don't disagree with that either. I think both issues were in play. What a ****ing mess. We've got the best of the best on both sides of the aisle, right? Oh, brother...
    Absolutely, the DC morons know that they NOW spend 40% more than they dare ask for in direct taxation, so now all other "goodies" are being forced upon us by using unfunded gov't mandates and they have invented a tax (or fine or fee) that requires no criminal charges or hearings but for simple INACTION, or refusing to comply with an unfunded mandate, on our part. That is truely insane, yet according to 5/4 of our nine robed umpires, somehow completely constitutional.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-01-12 at 07:38 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    "learning about the tax lie"? lol. Seriously, you think Republicans are that stupid? You think they like heard that this penalty was authorized under the taxation power and thought "gosh, that there 'bama dun said it waadn't no tax! he dun lied!'"? LOL. No, dude, even Republicans aren't that stupid. Obviously the penalty is the same thing as it always was. Nothing changed. What constitutional power authorizes it doesn't somehow change it from a good policy to a bad policy or something. Most constitutional scholars believe it is under the commerce power. Roberts thinks it's only under the taxation power. Obviously a new constitutional limit on the commerce power that the courts just made up the other day doesn't mean everybody who adhered to the previous interepretation of the commerce clause is a "liar"... Seriously man, that angle is just too stupid to even really explain... You need to think harder.


    He lied. Or if you don't like that . . . . . then he was to stupid to know what was in the bill he signed with much fanfare. Either way he needs to go; we don't have the time to train the OJT president anymore.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Seriously man, try harder. I'll go through it one more time for you, but you need to concentrate. You should not be struggling with this as much as you are.

    The right exerted a huge amount of pressure on the Democrats over health care reform. The teabagging, the whole paranoid conspiracy theory angle, all kinds of stuff. Democrats in swing states have to deal with that. They can't just ignore it or they won't be re-elected. So, to quell the opposition they had to make concessions. For example, we gave up the public option, gave up coverage for abortions and added a citizenship check. Those were the three biggest requests of the right and they got all three. You follow?

    That isn't a change in my argument, that is me having to spell things out more simplistically because you seem to be having a hard time understanding.
    By that definition, every bill ever passed is done through concessions to he other party. If that is what you are saying then you are stating the obvious and adding nothing to the conversatio. But your original claim was the democrats made concessions to the GOP. You are saying something different now. What you are now claiming is that democrats made concessions to the political reality that there was not enough public support for any other course of action. But that is obvious and true of every piece of legislation since nothing has unanimous support. The truth is, there is no majority support for single payer in the US, and in fact, no one was advocating it.

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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    In watching the Sunday shows this morning I see a lot of fancy dancing by demo's on these shows...One thing strikes me as not only expected, but just as slimy, and underhanded as we've come to expect out of these demo's today....And that is that even though the opinion of the SCOTUS is clear, that the law is a tax, and a huge one, they are all over trying to paint this as not what CJ Roberts, and the majority opinion said it was in order to make it stand.

    So, tell us demo's, now that it is classified as a tax in order to be constitutional, isn't Obama caught in the same lie that did in Geo. H.W. Bush....The "read my lips.." gambit? And how does he prevail now that he is being uncovered as the biggest taxer, and spender we've ever had in office?


    IMO, he'd better learn to dance real good. Maybe a TAXie dance.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Exchanges were a Republican idea? Individual mandate?
    Yes on both counts.

    Even if they had been floated as a GOP idea,
    They were more than "floated as a GOP idea." These were the bread and butter of Republican health care reform plans for at least 20 years.

    there is a big difference between floating the idea and making it policy.
    There certainly is. Republicans were content to talk about these ideas in order to pretend like they actually wanted to do something, but the minute a guy with a (D) next to his name tried to make it policy they abandoned the idea. Not just as an idea they'd changed their mind about. Not just as an idea that they respectfully disagreed about. Not even as a bad policy. But as a horrible, tyrannical, socialist, unconstitutional, illegitimate policy that would bring about the destruction of America.

    When it came time to make policy, GOP were not even invited into the room.
    A charming version of history...if only it were true. The chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Max Baucus, spent MONTHS negotiating with Chuck Grassley, Orrin Hatch, and Olympia Snowe. Many/most of their ideas found their way into the Affordable Care Act. This negotiation didn't stop until the fall of 2009 when it became clear that the Republicans were simply stringing Baucus along and had no intention of supporting anything.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-01-12 at 07:26 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Absolutely, the DC morons know that they NOW spend 40% more than they dare ask for in direct taxation, so now all other "goddies" are being forced upon us by using unfunded gov't mandates and they have invented a tax (or fine or fee) that requires no criminal charges or hearings but simply INACTION, or refusing to comply with an unfunded mandate, on our part. That is truely insane, yet according to 5/4 of our nine robed umpires, somehow completely constitutional.
    I guess it IS constitutional, given interpretations of commerce clause and tax clause and general welfare clause. I won't fault SCOTUS for this pile of ****. And as you point out, it goes way beyond Obamacare. It is the system. Started with some good ideas, but politics got things re-interpreted. I blame Roosevelt and 1936 coercion of the SCOTUS with the threat of expanding the number of Justices to dilute opinion, unless they re-interpreted the General Welfare Clause. In 1945, entitlements were like 4% of the federal budget. Now it is over 60%. Ooops!

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    [QUOTE=AdamT;1060645628]I think that republicans may be more cooperative if Obama wins reelection....QUOTE]

    I think you are engaging in what is called forlorn hope. The American left can't reach conservative opinion and liberals don't understand how conservatives think. There will be despair, resentment and radicalization on the right if, as and when President Obama is reelected.

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