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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Oh bull****. The Affordable Care Act is almost identical to Mitt Romney's health care reform law in Massachusetts, and virtually every single provision in the ACA had been endorsed by prominent conservatives, including Newt Gingrich, Bob Dole, Chuck Grassley, Orrin Hatch, Robert Bennett, and the Heritage Foundation. And take a look at some of John McCain's health care ideas from the 2008 campaign. Does any of that look familiar?

    The Democrats did listen to input from the GOP. They spent the entire summer (and into the fall) of 2009 asking for their input and trying to reach a compromise for a bipartisan agreement. Instead the Republicans gave them the finger, burned down the groundwork for their own ideas, pissed on the ashes, and salted the earth.



    Even if it did (highly unlikely), all it takes is for Rush Limbaugh and FOX News to start calling it socialist. Then these same people will immediately abandon the idea and swear up and down that they've always hated such a tyrannical idea (and probably actually believe that they always have).
    Do you think conservatives believe you? Will conservatives now unite with you in order to save the country?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    But you are changing your argument. YOur first claim, the one I have been addressing, is the false claim that democrats made concessions to republicans that weakened the bill. That is false. That republicans and the general public had serious opposition to what the democrats were doing is true, but irrelevant. The bill was crafted not to appease angry, mean republicans, but to bring in 218 nervous democrats. This is a democrat bill. Own it. You certainly would if it were popular.
    Seriously man, try harder. I'll go through it one more time for you, but you need to concentrate. You should not be struggling with this as much as you are.

    The right exerted a huge amount of pressure on the Democrats over health care reform. The teabagging, the whole paranoid conspiracy theory angle, all kinds of stuff. Democrats in swing states have to deal with that. They can't just ignore it or they won't be re-elected. So, to quell the opposition they had to make concessions. For example, we gave up the public option, gave up coverage for abortions and added a citizenship check. Those were the three biggest requests of the right and they got all three. You follow?

    That isn't a change in my argument, that is me having to spell things out more simplistically because you seem to be having a hard time understanding.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I was at a software company. But most of the regulations for those other industries don't kick in for small companies anyways. For example, energy company regulations will usually say that they apply to companies making more than X megawatts of energy or with more than Y employees or revenues or whatever.
    Those companies are all in capital intensive industries. It makes no sense to talk about a company in those industries that operate below the thresholds for regulation. Therefore, the regulation imposes a barrier to entry and , believe it or not, the established companies in those industries are perfectly happy with that situation. It is corporate preservation.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    But, those industries you list aren't just random. Those are all industries that have the potential to impose particularly enormous negative externalities on the general public. So it makes sense that they would be more heavily regulated, right?
    And software doesn't?!?!?!

    And is government the right group to do the regulation? Seems there is room there for abuse.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I would be sympathetic to that argument except it was crystal clear that Republicans only interest was in seeing that nothing got passed.
    I don't disagree with that either. I think both issues were in play. What a ****ing mess. We've got the best of the best on both sides of the aisle, right? Oh, brother...

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Assume for the sake of argument that you are correct. Do you think Republicans will now cooperate with your side? Probably not. Do you think that division will weaken America?
    I think that republicans may be more cooperative if Obama wins reelection. After all, they have explicitly said that their No. 1 goal is to beat Obama — not to lower unemployment or the deficit, but to keep Obama from winning a second term.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    And software doesn't?!?!?!
    Yeah... Of course it doesn't. Not sure what you mean. An energy company has the potential to create an oil spill or a nuclear disaster, for example. Nothing like that with software companies. So, they need to regulate energy companies more intensively.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    And is government the right group to do the regulation? Seems there is room there for abuse.
    Who else could do the regulation?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Sounds like a good argument for spending less on military and agricultural subsidies, and reforming our education system so that we can spend less there too.



    No, see, that's the thing. We *ALREADY* spend far more than any other country in the world on our health care. Yet we STILL get results that are, at best, average. Obviously the countries with universal health care are doing something right, and obviously we are doing something wrong.
    What is NEVER discussed is that very few more people will get ANY better medical care yet the costs, and wait times, FOR ALL will increase, thus round 2, 3 and 4 will be needed to "fix" that. I have yet to hear ANY rational argument for dropping obesity as a premium rate defining factor yet keeping smoking, or removing gender yet keeping age. The law has many ODD and contrdictory things that are, IMHO, not constitutional. Not the least of which, is levying a fine or tax for simply paying cash for one's own medical care. If I am not fortunate enough to recieve a tax free medical insurance benefit from my employer, is that now MY fault? Perhaps the PPACA should have made that employee benefit TAXABLE, as it surely benefits ONLY those that have it, since I am now to be taxed for simply lacking it. Not only do I not get that benefit, I must then pay a tax for not getting it. That is insane.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Democrats did listen to input from the GOP. They spent the entire summer (and into the fall) of 2009 asking for their input and trying to reach a compromise for a bipartisan agreement. Instead the Republicans gave them the finger, burned down the groundwork for their own ideas, pissed on the ashes, and salted the earth.
    Oh bull****. The Dems completely ignored them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Even if it did (highly unlikely), all it takes is for Rush Limbaugh and FOX News to start calling it socialist. Then these same people will immediately abandon the idea and swear up and down that they've always hated such a tyrannical idea (and probably actually believe that they always have). The Tea Party is not some budding new movement of independents who happen to be conservatives fed up with the size of government; they're just a bunch of pissed off Republicans who like to dress up like Uncle Sam.
    Some like Rush and whoever, but others think he is a fool. The problem exists on both sides, Dem and GOP. Anyone gets out of line and the propaganda machine goes to work to make everyone toe the party line.

    Time for the Tea Party and the OWS folks to step out of line.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Oh bull****. The Dems completely ignored them.
    Be serious. The Dems essentially submitted a Republican plan, for Gods sake. The big Democratic addition was the public option, which they dropped because they needed a few republican votes.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What is NEVER discussed is that very few more people will get ANY better medical care yet the costs, and wait times, FOR ALL will increase, thus round 2, 3 and 4 will be needed to "fix" that. I have yet to hear ANY rational argument for dropping obesity as a premium rate defining factor yet keeping smoking, or removing gender yet keeping age. The law has many ODD and contrdictory things that are, IMHO, not constitutional. Not the least of which, is levying a fine or tax for simply paying cash for one's own medical care. If I am not fortunate enough to recieve a tax free medical insurance benefit from my employer, is that now MY fault? Perhaps the PPACA should have made that employee benefit TAXABLE, as it surely benefits ONLY those that have it, since I am now to be taxed for simply lacking it. Not only do I not get that benefit, I must then pay a tax for not getting it. That is insane.
    If you don't get insurance through work, you're supposed to get it on your own. If you have any trouble at all paying for it, the ACA helps you out with that. So what's the problem? You're concerned about well off people who for some inexplicable reason don't want insurance? That isn't a real issue. It's just a convoluted hypothetical. There is virtually nobody who does that. Why would anybody do that?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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