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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Except it works just fine for every other developed nation.



    Well, we don't need to apply it to food.
    How much do these other nations spend (% of GDP) on their military, education, agricultural subsidies and other "social programs"? These other nations made different CHOICES than the U.S. and allocate their tax money on those things in different proportions than we do. Perhaps if the U.S. spent the SAME dollar amount, per patient/citizen, as they did, then we would have that same "quality" of care. Using apples to moonrocks comparisons is insane.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Other nations, understandably, aren't particularly fond of paying for health care for the citizens of deadbeat nations like ours. It's why I had to buy international health insurance policies when I was in college, whenever I traveled abroad (even to nations with universal health care).
    We treat illegal aliens for free, under the PPACA, why should they not do so?
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    How much do these other nations spend (% of GDP) on their military, education, agricultural subsidies and other "social programs"? These other nations made different CHOICES than the U.S. and allocate their tax money on those things in different proportions than we do.
    Sounds like a good argument for spending less on military and agricultural subsidies, and reforming our education system so that we can spend less there too.

    Perhaps if the U.S. spent the SAME dollar amount, per patient/citizen, as they did, then we would have that same "quality" of care. Using apples to moonrocks comparisons is insane.
    No, see, that's the thing. We *ALREADY* spend far more than any other country in the world on our health care. Yet we STILL get results that are, at best, average. Obviously the countries with universal health care are doing something right, and obviously we are doing something wrong.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    We treat illegal aliens for free, under the PPACA, why should they not do so?
    Because believe it or not, other nations have sovereign governments where they set their own policies, rather than merely acting as foils to the US policies on various issues.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Sure, that happens sometimes. Like I say 1 out of 100 uses of the commerce clause is pro-corporate. But the extent to which it happens is wildly exaggerated. For example, you hear a lot of talk about small businesses being driven out of business by overwhelming regulatory burdens. I worked at a three person start up as it grew into a 75 person company. The only regulatory burden we really had was paying taxes once a year. The first year, the CEO did the taxes himself. The next two years he hired an accountant to work on it for a couple days. Then once it got bigger, the CFO did them himself. That was it. It's hype. In fact, most regulations don't even affect small businesses at all. For example, most employment regulations don't kick in until a business has 50 or 200 employees. Financial reporting requirements don't kick in until a company is publicly traded on a major exchange with over 2,000 shareholders of record (which usually means at least 50,000 actual shareholders, since most investors, their brokerage is the "shareholder of record". So, you could have only one shareholder of record- etrade, but have a million shareholders).

    What the barrier to entry argument is is just spin from big businesses that want to push their externalities on to the general public freely.
    I take it your company was not in the agriculture, defense, pharmaceutical, energy, telecom or financial industries. Were you working for a designer label?


    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I mean, I'm sure some manufacturers and whatnot lobby in favor of the war on drugs. But I don't buy that that is the main motivation behind it. Seems more driven by the politics to me. Again, I'm strongly anti-war-on-drugs. And I'm for legalization at least of non-physically-addictive drugs. But, I think it's a bit of a stretch to blame the war on drugs on the corporations. There was, and to a lesser extent, there still is, an enormous amount of public hysteria about it. It is very similar to the immigration hysteria today IMO.
    Drug War: Propaganda
    How Cannabis was Criminalised | Cannabis Information

    Once opium and marijuana were illegal, it was simple to extend the drug war industry to all other illicit drugs and the US federal government was the prime mover in the UN making drugs internationally illegal. The Drug War is a vast industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No that is not accurate at all. The commerce clause has played a fairly minor role in the war on drugs. The war in general is conducted by states, who don't need any constitutional justification. For federal law enforcement, actual interstate, or international drug trafficking the federal government would have authority over regardless of the commerce clause. The only place they really need it is in the scenario you referenced- somebody who is growing their own drugs for consumption within the same state. So, trying to pin the war on drugs on the commerce clause isn't very reasonable IMO.
    The states and the feds conduct the war on drugs. The states' war on drugs is funded by the feds.

    Ok, I am with you. The commerce clause has not played a fundamental role in drug criminalization, but it is not a minor role either, at least in the case of marijuana. Otherwise, I could grow for personal consumption. See Gonzales v. Raich.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 07-01-12 at 06:50 PM.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    How much do these other nations spend (% of GDP) on their military, education, agricultural subsidies and other "social programs"? These other nations made different CHOICES than the U.S. and allocate their tax money on those things in different proportions than we do. Perhaps if the U.S. spent the SAME dollar amount, per patient/citizen, as they did, then we would have that same "quality" of care. Using apples to moonrocks comparisons is insane.
    Don't allow him to distract you

    UHC in other nations are not doing fine. Just look at the report that just came out about the NHS in the UK.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Perhaps if the U.S. spent the SAME dollar amount, per patient/citizen, as they did, then we would have that same "quality" of care. Using apples to moonrocks comparisons is insane.
    You have missed the point by a country mile. On averag those other countries spend HALF as much per capita as we do.

    Last edited by AdamT; 07-01-12 at 06:57 PM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No lol. That isn't how politics works. The right went bezerk over it. That has a huge impact. Democrats in swing states couldn't take the heat and they caved. That's what all those tea parties were about- trying to force democrats in swing states to cave.
    You defeat your own argument, but that is OK since is was false to begin with. By your own admission here, concessions were made to wavering and cowardly DEMOCRATS, not republicans. How many votes did Pelosi need to pass Obamacare through the House? How many democrat members did she have at the time? She needed to appease wavering democrats, not woo mean republicans as you first contended. This was a democrat bill that was signed into law by democrats. If it was wildly popular you would be trumpeting the fact that republicans played no role rather than thanking them for forcing democrats to make needed concessions. The fact is, the law is unpopular. Obama never mentions it, democrats never mention it. And you are trying to put the blame for its deficiencies upon republicans--who had no role in the process. That is just partisan revisionism on your part. Play it straight and your position would have more credibility.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I agree there are some similarities- they both want corporations to have less control over government. But they differ radically on the other side of the equation. OWS wants government to force corporations into line. The Tea Party wants government to let corporations off the leash to do whatever they want to us.
    I disagree that that is what the Tea Party wants. They want a controlled budget and fiscal responsibility. Given all the money the fed gives to various industries, they would be happy to review the incestuous relationship between government and corporations.

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